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Thread: Electronic Crossover

  1. #1
    Dang. Amateur speakerdave's Avatar
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    Electronic Crossover

    I've assembled almost everything I need for a reproduction of a large format 4-way monitor and am considering the crossover question.

    Just read Luxmanlover's comments on an old thread about the handiness of an electronic crossover when setting up a multiway speaker, and in any case, I will need one of these for the bass to bass/mid division.

    I've been looking into them and had thought to try and get one of the classics--the Crown VFX2 and 4, the Urei 525, but they seem to be bid up on eBay just now.

    There are the JBL crossovers using cards: people seem to have good things to say about them, but I'm not sure of the card supply.

    I'm a little wary of the newer ones by various brands because the prices make me expect heavy use of low quality parts--especially IC opamps--dbx for example--or maybe that shouldn't really be a cause for concern.

    On the other hand, I'm wondering if for experimental purposes it might make sense to go all the way modern to a digital unit like the Behringer 2496, which would give very great flexibility.

    I would appreciate hearing of your experience with these or other worthy possibilities.

    I'm interested in 1) Sound quality; 2) usefulness/flexibility; 3) connectivity. Right now my amps are the usual nightmare mixture of RCA, 1/4" T/R/S/ and XLR.

    Thank you,

    David
    Last edited by speakerdave; 09-30-2003 at 06:14 PM.

  2. #2
    Dang. Amateur speakerdave's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Electronic Crossover

    Originally posted by Giskard
    Well, if I ever finish fixing up all my Crown VFX-2A's you are more than welcome to buy one off me
    I'm down for that. Send me a PM when ready.

    Thanks,

    David

  3. #3
    RIP 2010 scott fitlin's Avatar
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    xovers

    The crown VFX-2 and MX4,s are great sounding units. very clean!

    The Urei 525 is also very versatile and has a sound characteristic of Urei products! I like them too! The crowns and Urei xovers are totally user definable and continuosly variable, and I like these features very much!

    If your on a budget, there is a company called Marchand, who makes all sorts of crossovers and he will make em to your specification. 6 thru 48db per octave slopes! And 2 way, 3 way, and 4 way stereo is available! These units have frequency cards installed in them, so you have to specify your crossover points! They have front panel output level controls and come with either RCA or XLR connections! Your choice! His units are nicely made, sound good, and dont cost an arm and a leg! you can even get them in kit form, which is the most economical of all!

    www.marchandelec.com.
    Last edited by scott fitlin; 09-30-2003 at 07:31 PM.

  4. #4
    Dang. Amateur speakerdave's Avatar
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    Marchand

    That sounds like a good source, Scott.

    Thanks!

    David

  5. #5
    Senior Seņor boputnam's Avatar
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    Re: Electronic Crossover

    Originally posted by speakerdave
    There are the JBL crossovers using cards: people seem to have good things to say about them, but I'm not sure of the card supply.

    On the other hand, I'm wondering if for experimental purposes it might make sense to go all the way modern to a digital unit like the Behringer 2496, which would give very great flexibility.
    Hey, David...

    On the first bit, the 5234A's on eBay are quite inexpensive for what they do. Getting cards configured for what you need might be easier than you think, with some of the wisdom here on the Forum.

    On the second bit, has been the result of my tiresome experiments and experience. Digital is still audible - it simply ain't ready, IMUHO.
    bo

    "Indeed, not!!"

  6. #6
    RIP 2010 scott fitlin's Avatar
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    I agree with you there Bo!

    Digital aint ready yet! Analog crossovers, good ones, are still king in my book!

    Another thing I have to say is that I prefer 12db and 18db butterworth filters over all others! 18db filters yeild a warmish sound, yet still allows a bit of overlap which I like!

    Whichever of the aforementioned devices you decide to go with, Dave, you can get outstanding results used properly!

  7. #7
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Well I am using M552 and M553 crossovers form JBL. Work fine very quiet analog crossovers with good features and you can Ebay them usually very at good prices. Only issue is steep L/R 24Db filters are fixed. Even if you don't choose to keep them you can usually get them cheap enough to have one around to experiment with. I have a spare M552 that I use for just that.


    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...category=23792

    Rob

  8. #8
    Alex Lancaster
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    Question

    What about passive x-overs, at line level?; I have heard them, but not really compared; some are outrageously priced, still the "audiophiles" say it is the only way.

    Alex.

  9. #9
    RIP 2010 scott fitlin's Avatar
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    I cant say for sure.

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Alex Lancaster
    What about passive x-overs, at line level?; I have heard them, but not really compared; some are outrageously priced, still the "audiophiles" say it is the only way.

    Alex.
    [/QUOT

    The only thing about using passives at line level in my opinion is that since they produce no gain, and have no active stages they would be the quietest! But, I need gain. So, for me, I must use active electronic crossovers!
    Last edited by scott fitlin; 09-30-2003 at 09:19 PM.

  10. #10
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Alex Lancaster
    What about passive x-overs, at line level?; I have heard them, but not really compared; some are outrageously priced, still the "audiophiles" say it is the only way.

    Alex.
    What Scott says about the loss of gain is unfortunately true, but if your preamp has enough gain, and most good ones have plenty of gain a passive crossover used at line level is a really great way to go. They are absolutely silent, add no distortion, and don't add that IC opamp or cheap transistor haze that most active crossovers do.

    Here is a DIY solution that provides the ultimate in quality at the absolute lowest cost. I posted this link before but check it out. The second link has useful additional information. The first one is a little over simplified.

    Widget

    http://www.t-linespeakers.org/tech/f...ssiveHLxo.html

    http://www.silcom.com/~aludwig/Sysde....htm#Bi_amping
    Last edited by Mr. Widget; 09-30-2003 at 10:36 PM.

  11. #11
    Dang. Amateur speakerdave's Avatar
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    Thanks for all this help!

    I appreciate the thoughtfulness of these comments you all have offered.

    Alex, Scott, Mr. Widget: on passive line level crossovers--

    I have run across this idea before, on these forums and elsewhere--in fact I have one--a one-off by M&K that I got on eBay for $20--that I have fooled around with-- and also an 100Hz passive by Audio Research that I tried to use many years ago.

    I see this as an option I could employ further down the line, simply because of the complexity it adds to the project even though the result may be a simplification of the whole system--a good goal to keep in mind. I'm not aware that you can buy these anywhere, so each one would have to be made specifically for the two drivers and the AMP!--all based on an understanding of network theory that I've yet to acquire. Thanks for the links--you may discern I've already done some reading on them, to know that the input impedance of the amp is a concern.

    For now I think the best option for me is a combination of bi-amping and low level crossover perhaps for the mid/tweeter division. Another consideration is that I will probably want to play these speakers LOUD at times, so the unity gain of an active crossover may be desirable.

    But again--Thanks so much!

    David
    Last edited by speakerdave; 09-30-2003 at 11:17 PM.

  12. #12
    Dang. Amateur speakerdave's Avatar
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    Transistor Haze

    Mr. Widget: " . . . . IC opamp or cheap transistor haze that most active crossovers do . . . ."

    Right! I'm actually kind of wary of this, but I think the trade off of getting the Henrys out from in front of the woofer and the bass/mid may be worth it. As Dr. Gizmo maintained, Shangri-la here may be tube crossovers. But that is WAY down the line.


    Bo, Scott: Re digital:

    I quite agree with you. However, I think in some applications the ability to have crossover and EQ done digitally in one instrument may work well. I would expect, though, that the equipment to do that well now would be very expensive.

    David
    Last edited by speakerdave; 09-30-2003 at 11:22 PM.

  13. #13
    Obsolete
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    "On the first bit, the 5234A's on eBay are quite inexpensive for what they do. Getting cards configured for what you need might be easier than you think"

    I've posted the schematics to these cards before but have no idea if they were on this forum or one of the previous forums. If they need to be posted again, let me know.

    "Another thing I have to say is that I prefer 12db and 18db butterworth filters over all others! 18db filters yeild a warmish sound, yet still allows a bit of overlap which I like!"

    I totally agree, except I'll toss in 6 dB/octave filters as well since I like them for Home use

    "What about passive x-overs, at line level?; I have heard them, but not really compared; some are outrageously priced, still the "audiophiles" say it is the only way."

    Passive line-levels are the "best" regardless of what "audiophiles" have to say. They were the "best" before "audiophiles" were invented

    Anyway, use a decent variable active filter to dial in your crossover frequencies and then substitute in the passive line level equivalents when done. Use the best caps you can find such as relcaps and then use resistors to trim to the right frequency. If you carefully match the caps to the power amplifiers and use high value resistors you won't loose much gain. I've been using passive line levels for 20+ years and they do have their uses

    I'd personally try some of the actives mentioned by everyone first though. In those active filters that don't have excellent bypass caps across the coupling caps feel free to install some
    Last edited by 4313B; 10-01-2003 at 07:25 AM.

  14. #14
    Senior Seņor boputnam's Avatar
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    Re: Transistor Haze

    Originally posted by speakerdave
    Bo, Scott: Re digital:

    I quite agree with you. However, I think in some applications the ability to have crossover and EQ done digitally in one instrument may work well. I would expect, though, that the equipment to do that well now would be very expensive.
    This is true, particularly in sound-reinforcement applications, but not in critical listening (i.e., home or studio). Widget watched me go through a reality-check on this a while back.
    bo

    "Indeed, not!!"

  15. #15
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    There should be a diy offering from Nelson Pass soon on passdiy.com.

    I expect it will be ruthlessly transparent and user friendly with multiple slope, frequency and Q options using discrete J/fet class A buffers like that attached.


    Ian
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