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Thread: What to power L300’s with?

  1. #16
    Dang. Amateur speakerdave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveL300
    The reason I ask is because some twenty five years ago when I first listen to a set of L300’s they were being powered by Pioneers Spec 1 and Spec 2 with a Technics direct drive turntable, listening to Pink Floyd’s Dark Side of the Moon. This was back in 1979. I thought the sound was fantastic. In fact it blew my mind! Thoughts / Comments?
    Methinks you've found your tribe. Congratulations on dusting off that old desire and making it happen.

    We kicked around the idea of doing a test with phenolic but never did. I'm not unhappy with aluminum.

    David

  2. #17
    majick47
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    Powering L300

    One important factor I forgot to mention that had a lot to do with the decision to power my L300 is the size of my listening room, 19'x26' with a 12' ceiling. Big room, big speakers, big amp, big sound. Also tried Adcom 565 mono amps (300x2), they were fine for the low end but not as smooth with the mids and highs as the Yamaha amps. Will probably end up useing the Adcom 565 for my JBL subs unless I run across another PC4002M.

  3. #18
    Senior Member Ducatista47's Avatar
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    I second the 7 watt notion motion

    Quote Originally Posted by SureFire
    New member here....Do you want Quality or Quanity of sound? I use a pair of mono bloc DIY SET WE300B Amps ~ heavy power supply, custom output transformers and 50's WE tubes @ 7 watts output with my L300's. A MAGIC lifelike combination, superb imaging, the speakers disappear, just the instruments playing in there own space. Suggest 7 watts with L300's and my audiophile friends were ready to fit me with a straight jacket, UNTIL they came by to listen. The music has the breath of "Life" in it. It's hard to believe that a 7 watt single ended amp could be capable driving L300's, but i'm sure there are other members on this board that use SE amps.

    Brian
    Welcome to the club, SteveL300!

    I have a setup very much like yours. My room in about 24 x 15 x 8 and my speakers are 4333's. These are pretty identical to L300's. I use an 80 watt per channel Denon solid state amp for movies, but for music it is a Grommes 6 watt single ended tube model all the way. It also kicks a decent 60 watt tube amp I have's butt when playing cd's or vinyl. There is no contest.

    I have read in the JBL literature that the 2X power recommendation is to keep clipped signals from destroying the transducers, more than for dynamic headroom to accurately reproduce transients in music. And that is only relevent if you turn things WAY UP. If you do this in a 24 x 15 x 8 room with 4333/L300's, your ears will bleed. These speakers are really loud at three watts.

    If you listen at any volume that doesn't hurt, your amp won't clip or go DC on you. The 2X advice, IMHO, is to idiot proof the system, like "no user servicable parts inside" or "do not operate power tools while standing in water or chicken soup." Or more to the point, "Don't listen so drunk or high you can't tell the windows are breaking."

    You see, Steve, L300's are a home use version of 4333's, a studio monitor for mixing recordings. Be advised that when these speakers were designed, rock groups sometimes monitored in the mixing room at concert volume levels (can you say "The Who?"), and I'm sure JBL knew that. You're supposed to wear earplugs at those levels. Maybe it's me, but I don't wear plugs when I listen to music from my hi fi rig. Ruins the sound for me.

    Some audiophiles I have met think ten watts is all the amp any owner of efficient speakers will ever really need, no matter what they listen to. I heard the same thing in the fifties, too.

    Clark in Peoria with his old Monitors and loving them
    Information is not Knowledge; Knowledge is not Wisdom
    Too many audiophiles listen with their eyes instead of their ears


  4. #19
    RIP 2013 Rolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SureFire
    As for a "realistic volume level" trying to fit the Chicago Symphony Orchestra at realistic volume levels into my 24 X 20 listening room.....
    No....I believe it would be very limited space for the orchestra, unless your room has a very high ceiling...

    Quote Originally Posted by Surefire
    It is a never ending quest.
    Brian
    I know. I have been "questing" for 40 years. It never ends. But I have never regret spending all that money on music and hi-fi equioment.

    Seriously, I understand your point regrding the 7w p/c, I just do not believe this setup is for most people. They want, like me, to play at a higher volume, and for that you need more power. That was my point for climbing into this thread.

    Rolf

  5. #20
    RIP 2013 Rolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveL300
    A lot of you recommend tube amps and to tell you the truth I have never dealt with tube amps. From what I’m reading they tend to give a much warmer sound to the mid’s.
    I agree with that, and can recommend a high quality mos-fet amp. Then you get a "tube sound" with the advantage of a transistor amp. Well, my opinion.

    Rolf

  6. #21
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ducatista47
    These speakers are really loud at three watts.
    Three watts per channel will get you into the low to mid 90s in a fairly live room of your size... not crazy loud, but it is a level that does sound loud in a home and is a level that I frequently listen to. Three watts is also loud enough that your 6 watt amp is definitely clipping on peaks... it is just that a small tube amp doesn't sound harsh like a 200watt solid state amp will. It will sound musical and start to compress the sound adding a certain level of "excitement".

    I would strongly urge you to consider bi-ampng with a 200watt mosfet on the woofer and the SET on the mid and high. This will give you better than both worlds and bring up the performance to an entirely new level. You will need a crossover that is at the level of your SET amp, so I'd suggest a tubed unit from Marchand. Alternatively you could use passive R/C networks between the preamp and the amps.


    Widget

  7. #22
    RIP 2013 Rolf's Avatar
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    I can agree with Widget, but since the bi-amping was not in the question, I did not bring it up. I bi-amp my 4343B's using mos-fet amps in both areas.

    Rolf

  8. #23
    Senior Member porschedpm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget
    Three watts per channel will get you into the low to mid 90s in a fairly live room of your size... not crazy loud, but it is a level that does sound loud in a home and is a level that I frequently listen to. Three watts is also loud enough that your 6 watt amp is definitely clipping on peaks... it is just that a small tube amp doesn't sound harsh like a 200watt solid state amp will. It will sound musical and start to compress the sound adding a certain level of "excitement".

    I would strongly urge you to consider bi-ampng with a 200watt mosfet on the woofer and the SET on the mid and high. This will give you better than both worlds and bring up the performance to an entirely new level.
    I have to agree with Widget on this one. When I first got my 4343B's I was powering them with a Cary 15w/ch 300B SET Tube integrated amp. It sounded delicious in the midrange and upper frequencies but just did not have the bass control that I was expecting. It was sloppy on the low end. My listening levels rarely ever exceeded 85db but I don't think that the Cary's 15w/ch and damping factor were enough to adequately control those 15 inch woofers. When I switched to a Pass Labs 250w/ch Class A MOSFET amp it brought back the tight, punchy bass I was lacking with the Cary. But I did lose some of that warmth in the upper frequencies the tubes provided. For me it was an acceptable trade-off. But as Widget states above, you can get the best of both worlds from bi-amping with a SS amp for the bottom end and a tube amp on the top. I considered this for my system but have been pleased with the Pass Lab's overall performance and, for my listening tastes, I don't feel I'm giving up that much with the Class A MOSFET SS amp.

  9. #24
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    There is a very good hyprid model made by Vincent that might do the trick.

    I saw a review in Aust Hi Fi for a integrated model that had a valve preamp and solid state power amp, 100 watts per channel min into 8 ohms, 200 watts per channel min into 4 ohms.

    The review was glowing, they are made in the far east.

    http://www.vincent-tac.de/en/produkt...sv_226mkII.php

  10. #25
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    WOW I can’t believe the response on this thread.

    You are all really great and the information you are all writing about sounds solid. May I reel you back in for a moment? On my second post on this subject. I had addressed that I was wanting a simple setup. So bi-amping with tube and SS would probably be out of the question.

    A lot of you are writing about listening levels. My consideration for this is also simple. I just want to listen to music the way it was meant to be heard. I don’t want to bust any ear drums. But I have to admit that there are times when I like to feel the music as well as hearing it, like you would in a live performance. I think the L300’s can archive this without much problem.

    My listening room is approximately 16’ X 22” with a 9’ceiling. This is my home theater room which will now double as my music listening room.

    One thing I have neglected to say is back in 1977 through 1979 I was employed at JBL in the Quality Assurance department, testing dividing networks, drivers and speakers. When testing the drivers and speakers we used a 10 watt amp and a spectrum analyzer. We would then send a signal through the intended driver / speaker and check it with the spectrum analyzer. If it stayed within its intended range it would pass. I guess what I’m trying to say is I know JBL speakers are very efficient even at 10 watts they can get very loud.

    Thank you all for your input on this subject.

  11. #26
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    Bi-Amping L300's ~ The way to go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget

    I would strongly urge you to consider bi-ampng with a 200watt mosfet on the woofer and the SET on the mid and high. This will give you better than both worlds and bring up the performance to an entirely new level. You will need a crossover that is at the level of your SET amp, so I'd suggest a tubed unit from Marchand. Alternatively you could use passive R/C networks between the preamp and the amps.


    Widget
    Great idea, Mr. Widget and Rolf. Has anyone used a Marchand tube X-over? How's the sound quality? How would it compare to a R/C network between the preamp and the amp? Is there a downside outside of $$$$.

    Are any of the forum members going the CES Hi-End Audio Show at Alexis Park in Las Vega's in January? Maybe hook up and swap out some ideas and stories.

    Brian

  12. #27
    RIP 2010 scott fitlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SureFire
    Great idea, Mr. Widget and Rolf. Has anyone used a Marchand tube X-over? How's the sound quality? How would it compare to a R/C network between the preamp and the amp? Is there a downside outside of $$$$.



    Brian
    I have a solid state marchand xover and its quite good! Clean, musical sound!

    I have been looking at the XM-126 Tube xover, and I am going to buy one for myself! I spoke to Phil the other day, and according to him, the tube unit is really clear sounding, but has the characteristic warmth of the tubes! The great thing about Phils crossovers is he will build it any way you want it! Whatever gain, xover points, slopes and filter shapes, etc!

    What I can tell you at this time of the Marchand XM-126 is the tube he uses is the 12AX7, and Ive heard this tube in other units, preamps, and a freind of mine who has a piece coming out intended for the nightclub market, which utilize 12AX7,s! THAT tube always blows me away! Makes the music so real sounding, rounds off the glare in many of todays recordings, gives the music a top end twinkle, and the bass is believable! Most of all, that tube fleshes out the lower mid, making vocals sound so natural and realistic!

    When you speak to Phil Marchand about this crossover I can hear a certain enthusiasm in his voice as he tells you about this particular unit.

    I decided to go ahead and get one, Im ordering it this week!

    I really dig that 12AX7 tube, alot!
    scottyj

  13. #28
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    Ian,

    The Vincent hybrid integrated Amp model # SV- 226MK looks to be a very good and simple compromise of both worlds. I sent Vincent an email asking them about a distributor in the U.S.

    Thank you,

    Steve

  14. #29
    scorpio
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    I am using a 2A3 based amp to power my system which is basically a L200b but using LE15A for bass (which gives a little more efficiency than the original 136A). The amp is not even 4W but kicks a**. In my 14 by 14' room, I would not need any more power - windows would not handle it.

    It buries my previous 200W HK Citation, the bass might be a little less tight but the musicality is a lot better. As I repeated before, you don't need 200W if the 1st one sucks.

    I also tried the system with active filters and the SS on the low end, I did not think that it was worth it, but I still plan to try it again some time.

    Feedback is, I really do not believe you will need more power than you have at hand

    Cheers

  15. #30
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scorpio
    Feedback is, I really do not believe you will need more power than you have at hand
    I know I would need more power, but you may be right... his room is bigger though and that does make a very big difference in power requirements. I certainly agree that more power is no panacea when the 1st watt sucks.

    In my multi amped system, I never even use 1 watt on my drivers above 600Hz.


    Widget

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