Charge Coupling on the Cheap

[Ian Mackenzie]

The James Morrison CD Live in Paris 4509-99260-2 is also very nice if you really want to hear what your system is capable of. Track 8, "I asked for a Blues" is stunning. The trumpet is one of the most, if not the most difficult instrument to record and reproduce. You can hear it on this disk at its best.

I grew up in my youth with music at home, my brother played the trumpet during High School and he would practise every morning at home. Mark was taught under Ken Smith, world regarded at the time as the best classical trumpet player in the world. Mr Smith did a command performance for the Queen (UK) as I undertand it. Mark's fellow student and close friend Robert McWilliams played the Cornet. Mark's career has been in broadcast television (engineering), I wonder what might have been if he stayed with the trumpet. I met Robert by chance at Bennetts Lane last year..a jazz venue and he mentioned he was currently guest conductor for the Singapore Symphony Orchestra. He stole the show that night with a beautiful solo on the Cornet.

Ian

[mtrump]

What a fascinating thread!!!!

I read this as part of a search for info to upgrade my 250TI limited editions to a Jubilee “Charge-Coupled Linear Definition Dividing Network”.

I learned a lot (from this thread and others) THANK YOU, Ian, Giskard, JBLnut, and others!

Some things I take as facts

Despite my desire to think otherwise my JBLs, CD play, preamp and amps are a musical instrument, not a scientific device. Each part of the system plays a role in this “Art” to make recordings sound good to my ear.

Marketing compromises, component aging, marketing hype and the personal tastes of the artists/technicians/skilled craftsmen/engineers that created them have all played a role in the sound of my various JBL manufactured instruments.

Some of you have gone to great lengths to change these factors in your instruments to make them sound good to your ear.

My ear, given a few days, will “burn in” and I will perceive the change in sound to good (this ability/phenomenon of our mind is easily demonstrated).

I lean more to the skeptic side….. so to summarize my capacitor/Charge-Coupled Linear Definition Dividing Network learnings.

Playing with my antique JBLs is like playing with my 1968 Firebird; it is a great hobby with many passionate enthusiasts! I would like to come hear all your setups and talk about JBLs and all things musical.

Replacing old capacitors with new well engineered capacitors will change and likely improve the perceived sound to everyone’s ears.

Charge-Coupled Linear Definition Dividing Networks will sound different and those of you who have done it are pleased with the resulting sound. I perceive that this difference is probably the same order of magnitude as rearranging the position of the speakers in my less than ideal listening area. It may be dramatic, or only an enhancement depending on the condition of my original network. The use of Charge-Coupled Linear Definition Dividing Networks in new high end JBLs may be as much marketing hype as anything (like IMHO “bi-wiring” and “internal monster cable”).

My actions as a result of these learnings are to reorder my priorities for better sound.

• improve the positioning/listening room
• replace my amps (Adcom GFA 555mkII) with more musical tube amps (my brother has built high power class AB tube amps and is willing to build me a pair that are 300 watts/channel on paper)
• recap or charge couple my networks.

But probably most importantly start or find a thread on these forums of recordings which you fine gentleman think sound good on your JBLs. I have found that my JBLs sound really good on some recordings and lousy on others. My new goal Seek out the good recordings.

Anyone want to start sharing a list or point towards an existing one?

Thanks for letting me participate in this great discussion!

[Ian Mackenzie]

Recordings are important but your loudspeaker should never sound disatisfying.

In reference to my earlier notes I think this is wha is important about knowing recording well that you have heard on several systems and you have a fairly good idea of what the real thing actually sounds like.

I actually took the James Morrison CD with me when I visited John Nebel in 2004 for his 4343 - 4435 shoot out. It was impressive on both systems and they were both tonally very similar when subtle adjsutments were made.

John as I recall prefers the 4435.

Ian

[Ian Mackenzie]

SOLENS UNPLUGGED

I propose to listen to each version of the crossover discussed earlier and then provide some final remarks.

Tonight will be the Solen capacitors without the battery connected. The capacitors will be fully discharge prior to audition.

Solen capacitors without battery

I will open by saying I spent the best part of my evening preparing this evaluation and I was thoroughly disappointed.

It did not sound like real music, let alone HiFi. The highs were overpowering and fuzzy, the horns sounded like the diaphragms were damaged, a cracked brittle tone, the mids sterile and cold. The tonality was cold and difficult to determine as it was masked by what could be described as noise or hash.

I could however hear the outline of the Charge-Coupled presentation and concluded many things . To be continued.

The Solens are what the are they. That is about all I can say.

I played the Clarity SA capacitors earlier in the evening and they totally outclassed the Solens in every respect. They are just a superior product and highly recommended.

If you wish to be on the list for the evaluations please send me a pm

Ian

[JBLnsince1959]

Ian:



can't wait....

[JBLnsince1959]

-
- I hear the DC charge, as largely adding a bit of damping to the AC signal ( after passing through the caps holding onto the DC potential ) .

Generally, I feel that too much DC charge gives an over-dampened effect to the HF and VHF areas,( The UHF "tinklies" will almost actually disappear when the AC signal is overdampened.

Ian...did you notice anything like this with the Solens or the Clarity when CC'ed..( or any other CC'ed caps)

[Ian Mackenzie]

Ian...did you notice anything like this with the Solens or the Clarity when CC'ed..( or any other CC'ed caps)

I will elaborate shortly.

The thing to remember is that if a capacitor has been designed and voiced correctly, attempting to modify its performance is unlikely to improve but only change its characteristics.

Ian

[Ian Mackenzie]

Charge-Coupling: What does it do?

There appears no conclusive study on the subject supported by reseach and science.

However, it would seem that turning on the voltage potential does something. As to exactly what that will take some figuring and a more intensive analysis than I really have time for at the moment.

But what I can say is adding a voltage potental has the effect of reducing the total "noise" output across the full bandwith of the transducer in question.

Firstly this "noise" as distinct from the signal entering the capacitor is the result of plate/dieletric vibrations.The effect of the charge on the plates is to squeeze the internal construction and reduce the vibrations and hence the reduce the noise. That effect is clearly audible as less masking of the actual signal.

Secondly, the charge makes a more linear electron transfer and this can be heard as a more refined sheen on the highs.

Lastly, over time (a week or so) the compression has the effect of further squeezing and tightening the plates. This longer term physical change alters the transient behaviour of the capacitor and has the effect of modifying the impulse transients in that they appear to bloom above the rest of the overall presentation.

This explanation is supported by my practical evaluations and a technical perspective of the effects of applying a voltage potential on the physical properties of a capacitor.

[Ian Mackenzie]

CHARGE-COUPLING: It does make a difference?

You might ask given the above is Charge-Coupling a good thing or a bad thing?

I think the answer to that question has more to do with the total context in which it is applied. On a micro level the capacitors you select, the drivers you are using, on a macro level the final calibration of driver sensitivites and voicing of the loudspeaker and on a global level your associated components in your sound system.

By way of example if your stock crossover network uses Mylar capacitors, or Bypassed Mylar changing to Charge-Coupled (Solens) will make a significant difference and most users would recognise this difference as better.

As another example if your stock crossover already uses Polypropolyne capacitors bypassed with Polystyrene capacitors changing to Charge-Coupled (Solen) will be different and users would need to consider carefully of this change was just different, better or worse in each case. (A control reference would be useful in this evaluation as it is easy to be swayed by a difference as being better in comparisons).

The best thing I can say about it is yes, it does make a difference.

There are lots of things you can you do to make your sound system sound different. Some will interpret a change as better, other's worse and for some it will be just different. There are less choices when it comes to improvements and this usually comes at a price.

Its really an individual thing and you have to decide for yourself.

In reviewing this thread my own honest appraisal is that I went from the wow factor, an intial reaction to then disppointment with the expectation that Charge-Coupling was/is superior. The latter part of this thread is a more an investigation and a logical matter of fact assessment.


Ian

[Zilch]

I believe it's zero-crossing.

So long as the peak-to-peak voltage of the signal is less than 18V, the charge on the "plates" never reverses.

Think of it as Class A operation of capacitors....

[Ian Mackenzie]

Think of it as Class A operation of capacitors....

There are lots of references to class A in the audio industry, sadly most of them don't stack up under scrutiny.

The fact is I can show you two different class A amps and they will sound entirely different and a non class A amp that will sound better.


That is beside the point as this discussion has been more about making informed decisons than glib references to glossy brochures.

[Zilch]

That is beside the point as this discussion has been more about making informed decisons than glib references to glossy brochures.

I'm talking about the PRINCIPLE of Class A operation, of course, not the hype....

[Ian Mackenzie]

The Cost Benefit Analysis

As a matter of accuracy of the results I have reconfirmed the longer term effect (3) noted above in comparison to an uncharged Solen capacitors.

If you wish I could run a comparison by between Solen Charge- Coupled Solen capacitors and Charge-Coupled the Clarity SA Capacitors.

However, the cost of using Charge-Coupled topology with the Clarity SA capacitors is double in Aust adjusted dollars, ie AUS$47.00 versus AUS$100.00 for just the UHF and HF filter for example. (for one channel only).

The cost benefit becomes another important aspect in the process of deciding what choices to make.

The cost benefit analysis definately provides a strong case for using using at their price point the Solens (ie ex factory price) in Charge-Coupled topology compared to Solens non Charge-Coupled.

However, if you have the choice of another capacitor like the Clarity SA capacitor that offers the equivalent or better performance in the same instance for AUS$32.00 (for one channel only) without Charge-Coupling then the question is why spend the extra funds?

Clearly if you can satisfy yourself the Clarity SA capacitor is the preferred choice then the cost benefit analysis of using the Clarity capacitors makes them them outright choice (AUS$32.00 verus AUS$47.00).

Is there a case for spending 3 x as much for Charge-Coupling Clarity SA capacitors (AUS$32 versus AUS$100)? Probably not, particularly as in this example we are only referring to the HF and UF section of one channel. Scaling the cost to a whole system may blow out your budget.

And if you are going to open up you wallet on big bucks you are probably going to be a lot more critical about your final choice as there are a number of very good competing alternatives.

Ian

[Ducatista47]

From our own weblinks - thanks, Techbot! -
http://www.lansingheritage.org/image...500/page10.jpg
http://www.lansingheritage.org/image...500/page11.jpg
http://www.lansingheritage.org/image...500/page12.jpg

I'm not sure if they are saying that Greg Timbers is the inventor of charge coupling; he certainly is the point man at JBL for the technology, as surely as he is Mr. 250Ti.

Clark in Peoria

[Ian Mackenzie]

Quote: "of course the BIG question ( and I don't think anyone would foot the bill to find out), does CC only improve only low-grade caps or can it provide a big improvement to high grade caps. What Rudy wrote makes a lot of sense, but is it correct?"

Rick,

That is one of the reasons I thought it was worthy of some comment from JBL. Robert's edited post (133) I missed and only just read so I am addressing your question with what information I have.

As a matter of interest 9800 Statement is/was according to the schematic fully charge- coupled and bypassed, and double bypassed and charge-coupled on the woofer as a matter of fact. The 4344Mkt11 only had the mid, HF and UHF charge-coupled and not bypassed. There is no definite indication of what capacitors varieties where used or why in the above systems. We do know the latest Everest statement appears to use Solens in some areas from visual indications. Often the schematics are simplified so we dont know for certain what's in them. There is absolutely no continuity in any the systems, nor specific details as to what was done and why regards the networks. Obviously certain things were done a certain way for a reason. That's all we know. Is it that important? Well obviously the designer thinks so.

If you don't questions and make enquiries or do some of you own research your in the dark. There are too many unknowns to make any assumptions on limited evidence.

If you go out into your back yard the lawn will look nice and smooth and tidy. Stick a your shovel right in a fair way and turn over some of the top soil. Yes you will find some worms, the more you look the more you'll find.! LOL..Muhhahaha.

To answer the first part of your question there is no doubt Charge-Coupling really makes a significant "difference" in the case of the Solens and it reasonable to say they are a low cost product. I use the term difference because its important to make the distinction between being a difference, an improvement which is the case here and perfect which frankly is not the case. Does it work best with a Solen? I don't know and that is another good question.

I don't know if Charge-Coupling make a significant "improvement" to high grade capacitors and I think it would to dumb to make an assumption either way. It probably reasonable to assume that it would make a "difference".

I can tell you that in evaluations the Solen Charge-Coupled capacitors have a different presentation to other high grade capacitors. Premium grade (expensive) capacitor offer particular qualities not found in the lower grades. As to which is best it depends on environmental considerations and people have certain preferences and tastes. There is no doubt certain markets like particular preferences that others don't.

I have no doubt low cost capacitors benefit from Charge-Coupling but the degree of improvement may vary from one variety or brand to another.

Solen Fast capacitors have been around for a long time now. Why speaker manufacturers switch and change varieties from one model to another? There ae probably a number of considerations. Most manufacturers, even Solen have several ranges. They make for example Film Foil types that are better than the metalised 400 volt Fast caps. The Film Foils types are more expensive. Refer to the above post regards cost benefit.

Ian