4343/L400

[Rolf]

Hi all forum members.

A couple af days ago I (for no reason) started to wonder about JBL's "mystery speaker" - the L400.

A search on the forum came up with 3 threads, and after reading these I am even more confused.

Acording to this thread
http://www.audioheritage.org/html/pr...bl/everest.htm
there is some info from Harman International, Courtesy of Greg Timbers.

I believe I still have that 1975 catalog somewhere promising "Coming soon". As we all know, it never came.

What makes me confused is when I read: "It would be a four-way speaker using a 15" low frequency driver, 10" midbass, 1" throat compression driver midrange and a slot tweeter".

HELLOO!!! This is just like the 4343....Right??

And then: "However, there were also tecknical issues and no one was satisfied with the ultimate sound of the prototypes".

Well, does this means that JBL was not satisfied with the 4343? or what?

Maybe (probably) there is something I have missed. Can any of you who know so much about JBL history and development over the years please bring some light into my world?

Rolf

[Mr. Widget]

HELLOO!!! This is just like the 4343....Right??

And then: "However, there were also tecknical issues and no one was satisfied with the ultimate sound of the prototypes".

Well, does this means that JBL was not satisfied with the 4343? or what?

I am taking a wild guess here, but it may have been that they determined that the home consumer not having the technical expertise and equipment to get the most from a design that was originally intended for studio use would be dissatisfied with the L400. All studios and most everyone on this board that use large format monitors use some form of analyzing equipment and equalizers. For the most part these were not available to consumers in the mid 70's. The RTAs that were available were extremely costly and the EQs were either the practically useless 10 band home jobs or were also extremely costly.

By 1980 they were selling the 43XX series in some Hi-Fi shops anyway. I remember A/B-ing a pair of Klipschorns and 4350s....


Widget

[Rolf]

I am taking a wild guess here, but it may have been that they determined that the home consumer not having the technical expertise and equipment to get the most from a design that was originally intended for studio use would be dissatisfied with the L400.

Sounds like an possible reason, but the 4333 was made to the L300...??

All studios and most everyone on this board that use large format monitors use some form of analyzing equipment and equalizers.

Really? I don't. What kind of equipment? A equalizer is something I have been thinking about for some time. Any to recomend?

The RTAs that were available were extremely costly and the EQs were either the practically useless 10 band home jobs or were also extremely costly.

I know about the 10 bands...but what is an RTA??

By 1980 they were selling the 43XX series in some Hi-Fi shops anyway. I remember A/B-ing a pair of Klipschorns and 4350s....

I have listen to both, but never in A/B test. Want to tell us your opinion?

Thanks for your info so far.

Rolf

[Robh3606]

I have 4344 clones that I built and use an Real Time Analyzer to set the driver levels up and match levels speaker to speaker. I don't use EQ on the 4344's. With careful set-up you can get a very nice flat response if that's what you want. You can also voice them to your needs or taste. I think Widgets point is that for you to get the most out of them you can't just treat them as plug and play. They need to be off the floor with the 2405 at the right height as an opener which you may not be able to do. You can adjust by ear but I find I need and RTA so I can see what's really going on. I have tried set-up's by ear only to end up chasing my tail as your ears can hear a treble rise as a bass deficiency and visa versa depending on the circumstances.

I use cut only EQ's in my main set-up, Urei 539's that I would reccomend I know Whites are excellent as well. Even with EQ's in my main system I actually use them very sparringly figure the less the better. Try to get it right with placement, driver levels and selection and use the EQ only when I run out of other options. If you can I would use room treatments as well. I just use acoustic tile and rugs to help tame the room a bit.

One of Zilches many RTA plots


Rob

[herve M]

Hello, the mystery speaker L400 is the future ...everest !! The mid woofer is missing for "coherence sound".

[Mr. Widget]

Really? I don't. What kind of equipment? A equalizer is something I have been thinking about for some time. Any to recomend?

There are so many choices. The top of the line pro models are generally good but there are many here who are satisfied with the Behringer models... there are quite a few discussions on this subject, do some searches. For those who read my criticisms of the Behringer on that other thread, I was satisfied with my Dad's Chevy Vega until I drove a real car.

I know about the 10 bands...but what is an RTA??

Real Time Analyzer. These days there are many available in the $200-$300 price range. I have two, a Rane and a DOD. They are both cheap and surprisingly accurate, especially if you use an external pink noise CD. There are also many higher end computer based forms of analyzing set ups. I use Clio, but there must be 10 alternatives. Most of these use MLS or swept sine wave based signals and analyze them to perform a variety of measurements.

I have listen to both, but never in A/B test. Want to tell us your opinion?

It was a very long time ago. I remember liking them both and being disappointed with them both. They sounded surprisingly dissimilar, for two supposedly accurate speakers.


Widget

[Zilch]

One of Zilches many RTA plots.

YIKES! Fiends stole 315 Hz, apparently.

That'd be room mode in the garage that day.

I was satisfied with my Dad's Chevy Vega until I drove a real car.

Your secret is safe with me....

[yggdrasil]

Hi Rolf.


For years I thought trusted my ears when setting the levels on my 4-ways. This has been a frustrating experience, mostly with the singers wandering around in the stage...

A couple of years ago I borrowed a signal generator and mic from my father, only to adjust the equalizers. It was a huge improvement, but if you look in this thread: http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...&highlight=spl you will find an interesting technique to adjust the attenuators on your 4343's.

I did something similar and threw out my equalizers a couple of months ago. Believe it or not - the singers have stopped wandering around the stage.

My father still has the signal generator and mic. You should call him.

BTW - how is the veneering coming along?

[Robh3606]

"For years I thought trusted my ears when setting the levels on my 4-ways. This has been a frustrating experience, mostly with the singers wandering around in the stage...'

I think you nailed it. Without careful level matching I have had the same experience where your image shifts or you loose focus.

Rob

[Titanium Dome]

"For years I thought trusted my ears when setting the levels on my 4-ways. This has been a frustrating experience, mostly with the singers wandering around in the stage...'

I think you nailed it. Without careful level matching I have had the same experience where your image shifts or you loose focus.

Rob

It's an absolute necessity. Ears just can't do this.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Agreed..you nailed it.

I recently bought new leather recliner chairs...they are 4 inch higher off the floor .

Bummer.... I new it when I played the system...the imaging was lost and it almost sounded like a 604 (honking). The 23072308 Lens combination appears to also have a narrow vertical coverage angle or the system on axis response vertically has a forward lobe that is possibly designed into the crossover for a flat on axis response. I dont have the specs handy, I might do some off axis measurements and post them at some stage.

That is one of my jobs this weekend...I might get away with tilting then back a touch..they are just too heavy to move around much

Any way the point is they a way more twitchy than the home series when it come to setting up. But when done right they a absolute ball breakers to beat.

I saw in another thread a nice deal on a hand held analyser (Ken uses on most effectively). Otherwise consider and PC analyser.

Rob is right though with careful adjustment and loudspeaker location you can get away without Eq on the 4344. I am not sure about the 4343.

Ian

[DavidF]

...I have tried set-up's by ear only to end up chasing my tail as your ears can hear a treble rise as a bass deficiency and visa versa depending on the circumstances....

Rob

So true and I have shared this experience. It would be nice to have a reference and device to hear the differences in quick succession. Like with the Optometrist. Better? or worse? a little better? Ah, yes...

David F

[Rolf]

Hi all, and thanks for all feedback. Please take some time and look at my questions below.

I have 4344 clones that I built and use an Real Time Analyzer to set the driver levels up and match levels speaker to speaker.

With this, do you mean adjusting the L-Pads? The only thing I have done (by my ear) is to lower the 2420 and to rise the 2121 a bit.

I don't use EQ on the 4344's. They need to be off the floor with the 2405 at the right height as an opener which you may not be able to do.

The 2405 is at ear level in my listening position. The speakers stands about 8cm (3") above the floor.

You can adjust by ear but I find I need and RTA so I can see what's really going on. I have tried set-up's by ear only to end up chasing my tail as your ears can hear a treble rise as a bass deficiency and visa versa depending on the circumstances.

I will look into using an RTA. (I know what it is now! )

Rolf

[Rolf]

It was a very long time ago. I remember liking them both and being disappointed with them both. They sounded surprisingly dissimilar, for two supposedly accurate speakers.


Widget

A friend of mine owned a pair of 4350's, so I have been listening a lot to them. I remember them sounding good, but not as good as my 4343B's. Maybe the electronics used at that time (mid 80's) and the room was one reason. Regarding the Klipch, I remember the need of VERY strong walls behind them was needed.

Rolf

[Rolf]

Hi Rolf.

My father still has the signal generator and mic. You should call him.

BTW - how is the veneering coming along?

Hi you old tree. Yes I will call him today. I am still waiting for the veneer to arrive. I will post pics when the time comes.

Rolf