Paragon Project Complete...

[Jan Daugaard]

A German member of this forum, Rafael, is applying time delay to the woofers of the Paragon such that they are in phase with the 375 compression drivers.

Judging by a drawing of the Paragon (I don't own one myself), the distance between the woofer and the 375 is 110-120 cm, so a 3 ms delay of the signal to the woofers should be about right.

Jan D.

[slxrti]

Hi-fidelity did a review way back, if my memory serves me correctly they received a very good review.

JBL produced an energizer amp I believe this provided the necessary
eq to flatten the response.

slxrti

[Rafael]

After trying to “improve” the sound of the paragon with active x-overs (rane), digital crossovers (dbx driverack) and playing around with different amps (including the JBL energizer with the eq-cards for the paragon but mostly SE DH tube amps) here is my actual recommendation:

1. The room. You MUST absolutely use a relative big room with a listening distance of about 5-6 meters. As you know, good room acoustic is FAR more important than the quality of the amps.
2. When using a good active x-over (no cheap behringers please), try not to use big solid state monster amps. 1-2 watts are more than enough for the 375´s or 075. Try to use similar circuits of the different amps to get a coherent characteristic of the sound.
3. Measuring the response of the speakers in your room and compensation with a very good parametric EQ is essential. A correctly set EQ nearly cures all flaws of this speaker. This is simple made with the driverack series and you have all options like time delay and you can play around with different filter types. Sadly, I finally didn´t liked the sound of the digital units so I tried different types of parametric analog EQ´s. I finally ended with a massenburg 8200 unit- expensive but very good.
4. I tried the 150-4C, the LE 15 A and finally the 2235´s. In my opinion, the 150-4C´s have a bit more “attack” and “speed” but the LE 15 A´s –reconed or refoamed correctly- are more natural and “relaxed” sounding.
5. BTW, I have a good pair of L 250 ti´s. Most people who heard them in direct comparison with the paragon clearly prefered the paragon´s sound. When EQ´ed correctly, the paragon´s coloration is gone and you have the smooth and relaxed sound JBL was famous for.

Regards, Rafael

[Rolf]

Hi Rafael. I have some comments regarding your post.

The room. You MUST absolutely use a relative big room with a listening distance of about 5-6 meters. As you know, good room acoustic is FAR more important than the quality of the amps.

I agree, but good amps DO help.

1-2 watts are more than enough for the 375´s or 075.

In this I do NOT agree. You need about 20w for the 375's and 10 for 075. Any much less and you do not have enough headroom. (If you want to play loud) [/QUOTE]

Measuring the response of the speakers in your room and compensation with a very good parametric EQ is essential. A correctly set EQ nearly cures all flaws of this speaker.

Agreed. Paragon without EQ is difficult, BUT not impossible. (Room, room, room)

Regards

Rolf

[57BELAIRE]

As far as I can tell, the system needs to be balanced around the 375/H5038, as it is the most prevalent driver/horn combination in the compliment. We did alot of testing, starting by running the 150-4c's full range through the horns. It was immediately apparent that the horns are doing quite a bit of eq of their own. Nothing above 250-300Hz comes through, and what ever little else gets through is simply bounced around, out of phase and essentially ridiculous sounding.

This leads me to the 375/H5038. Since any attempt to play the LF horns below approx. 350Hz leads to a balky, resonant bump in the low mid, the need to play the 375/H5038's down low enough to meet them results in a very noticeable hole and odd phase characteristics at the crossover point.

Although power handling at those frequencies is not a problem for the 375, the characteristics of the 5038 horn do not allow for a smooth transition. There seems to be an unbridgeable gap between the LF and MF horns. Play that LF section too high and you get a bulky, heavy nastiness. Play the MF too low and you get a major dip in response along with funky phase characteristics.

Also, everyone seems to refer to the LE15 as stock LF drivers for the Paragon. The Paragon in question is an early one, serial #212. It was supplied with 150-4c bass drivers (which have now been reinstalled) and then "upgraded" to the LE15. The original LX-5 xovers were changed out with N500H. This is one of the reasons we thought it would sound better with a custom setup such as the one described in my original post.

I'm curious and intrigued by some of the amplifier recommendations made here, but I do not believe the amplifiers being solid or hollow state is the cause or solution to the problem. If I wished to augment the sound of the speaker artificially, I have plenty of signal processing gear which I could employ, including EQ, phase delays, and distortion emulators. However, I wish to bring this speaker to a decent ballpark before I start playing around with the electronics that power it.

I'm not seeing that happening.

More comments more than welcome.

-A

I may be wrong but, Paragon #212 predates mine (#278) and is claimed to have an LX-5 as it's "original " component.

I thought the LX-5 was used in the latter versions along with the LE-15 while the earlier 150-4c's utilized the N400.

[johnhb]

I have owned one for over eight years. Everyone who hears it loves it as to I. The alnico drivers lose some some of their magnetic field over time. Orange County Speaker has a remagnetizer and can bring them back to original sound and the bass punch will be back.

[NewZenith]

In defense of the Paragon, I will say that I believe it can be made to sound very good indeed. I only heard one on one occasion, but it played large orchestral works with effortless majesty, despite being driven by an inexpensive solid scrape (sorry) rack system. The bass horns, while not reaching that low, portrayed tympani and the like with realism. Dynamic range from lows to highs was very uniform and effortless, better than almost all modern systems.

Sure, the imaging is kind of strange and an acquired taste. I wish the bass horns were longer and larger, ditto for the midrange horns. Still, the Paragon is one of the few examples of a fully front loaded horn system ever to be sold into fine homes in any real quantity. It is tough to design a big horn system that doesn't look like plumber's butt- believe me, I know. The Paragon was well regarded for both its looks and sound, and its creators deserve much credit for this.

Steve, I was gust reviewing this thread, many many months after it was started and I must say truer words have never been spoken!

At that time I did not have a working Lansing heritage membership and Alan was posting on my behalf, I did not necessarily share the same opinion on the system at that time.

Update,
I have since re installed the LE15A bass drivers and added some LX5 crossovers, Alan and I flopped phase on the drivers until acoustic output was the highest and the system sounded most natural to us.
The Ashley XR2001 crossover and hafler amp experiment was a disaster! Even after extensive tweaking, those components are now much better used for my current direct radiator XPL250 copies.
One of the big problems incurred with those large transistor amps was noise, I now use an old Kenwood KA9100 integrated amplifier, it's a sweetheart and also extremely quiet as well as having a relatively low damping factor compared to the haflers.
As far as LF extension is concerned the speaker is adequate for orchestral work and most pop/rock,
but falls short on movie soundtracks and electronica, oh yeah and pipe organ stuff, I have temporarily solve this problem by adding a pair of SR4718's on each side, not my first choice but the price was right, they are crossed over at 60 Hz and blend in seamlessly.
As far as my contemporary impression of the system, it is more then I care to comment on right now, although if there is renewed interest in this thread I will definitely share everything that I have experienced thus far in regards to its acoustic properties. Suffice to say it is a very interesting loudspeaker that can do things other systems just can't, as with anything it's all about what compromises you can live with and what attributes you can't live without.
In conclusion I think the paragon is cool just because it is fully horn loaded, I love horns! and I love direct radiators. To me horns are for big spaces and direct radiators are for up-close, and or horns are for rich and eccentric people and direct radiators are for apartment dwellers. Of course there are exceptions! lol
future plans for this system include tube amplification, that I am currently needing to resurrect some nice old Brooks tryode amplifiers, some small parts missing.

Although it is a little late I want to thank everyone who participated in this most enlightening and well-meaning thread, in time I will try many different things to help that old system sound as good as it can.

NewZenith

[Jan Daugaard]

I'm considering cloning the Paragon in collaboration with MatthiasA.

While we all now what the Paragon looks like, we know less about its acoustic properties, so please share your experiences with us and the other forum members.

E.g., have you tried eliminating the bullet? Letting the 376s (2441s) cover the entire range above 500 Hz could have a beneficial effect on the imaging.

[Maron Horonzakz]

One point about the 375/376 The high frequencies take a fast nose dive reflecting off the curved panel and the tweeter is in the wrong place. The 075 or even better 2405 should also reflect off the curved panel. I made a special bracket to place tweeter at the panel. This helped in imaging. Over all I prefer the Metragon. All drivers reflect off the curved surface giveng a more cohearent sound field.

[Jan Daugaard]

Hi Maron,

how come the high frequencies take a fast nose dive when reflected off the curved panel of the Paragon, but not when reflected off the curved panel of the Metregon?

Isn't the problem rather that the 375 is dead above 9 KHz?

[Ian Mackenzie]

Interesting thread.

I am not surprised the Ashley and Halfer were a write-off and I have no doubt a large room is the order of the day.

I heard a pair of very well built Paragons built by a local JBL dealer some 25 years ago and they really are a cult speaker system...not for everyone.

A lot of people complain about Lowthers and Coral Beta 8s and 604-8G's but its really about complimentry equipment. Wilson Watts can also sound amazing or total crap in the right or wrong scene.

As I recall they were also very room dependant regards placement and furnishings.

My choice of vintage source and equipment would be ... Sota turntable, Sumiko cartridge, Passlabs Ono, P1.7 preamp and Aleph 5 or a Cary 35+35 SET most of which can be found on in the better classifieds.

[Mr. Widget]

In defense of the Paragon, I will say that I believe it can be made to sound very good indeed.

I have been mulling the question of what really sounds good over lately...

For years I have thought that the main reason that there were so many types of speakers out there was due to the fact that loudspeakers are the least accurate and most difficult portion of the recorded music chain to create. While I am sure this is a contributing factor, having spent years reading people's posts about speakers that I've personally heard, listening to friend's systems, and having friends come by and listen to mine, I think there are many flavors for many tastes.

At the low end of the market the goal is to make something listenable for cheap... sure whatever, a noble goal and I am sure not at all a trivial exercise, but with so many excellent speakers available very reasonably on the used market I have no interest in them. At the high end of the market, there are so many different flavors it seems hard to believe we all hear the same way... and maybe we don't. Some people like highs that sizzle, or bass that booms. Some like a system that exaggerates the mids. Some people like a large diffuse sound field and others a very intimate small image. Some people want a pleasant tonal quality and will likely never listen to stereo from the sweet spot and others want a system that cranks and pounds at their bones.

So does the Paragon sound good? Sure... if it has the sound you like, and no way in hell if you are after a different sort of thing.


Widget

[edgewound]

I have been mulling the question of what really sounds good over lately...

For years I have thought that the main reason that there were so many types of speakers out there was due to the fact that loudspeakers are the least accurate and most difficult portion of the recorded music chain to create. While I am sure this is a contributing factor, having spent years reading people's posts about speakers that I've personally heard, listening to friend's systems, and having friends come by and listen to mine, I think there are many flavors for many tastes.

At the low end of the market the goal is to make something listenable for cheap... sure whatever, a noble goal and I am sure not at all a trivial exercise, but with so many excellent speakers available very reasonably on the used market I have no interest in them. At the high end of the market, there are so many different flavors it seems hard to believe we all hear the same way... and maybe we don't. Some people like highs that sizzle, or bass that booms. Some like a system that exaggerates the mids. Some people like a large diffuse sound field and others a very intimate small image. Some people want a pleasant tonal quality and will likely never listen to stereo from the sweet spot and others want a system that cranks and pounds at their bones.

So does the Paragon sound good? Sure... if it has the sound you like, and no way in hell if you are after a different sort of thing.


Widget

Mr. Widget,

You just brilliantly synopsized why the loudspeaker industry will never go out of business.

That is...unless we all go deaf and review cochlear implants.

[NewZenith]

So does the Paragon sound good? Sure... if it has the sound you like, and no way in hell if you are after a different sort of thing.


Widget[/quote]


That being said all things relative, what makes one speaker system worth so much more money than another? rarity and bragging rights aside.
I'm going to try and have a good listen to the paragon tonight, I will take some of my best recordings and a good deal of diverse material so I may audition it objectively. A couple of things the paragon does pretty well. Dynamics, having that large bass horn driven by a pair of powerful LE15a driver's gives it quite a bit of slam, the same kind of macro dynamics that horn midrange and tweeters give the upper ranges. For example the crash of symbols or the strike of a drum stick on the rim of a drum. Imagine that same dynamic sound carried all the way down to 70 Hz.
I'm quite sure that most of you are more familiar with different types of horn loaded bass drivers that I am, that being said I still think the paragon has more impact or slam the most systems I've heard, even medium format pro gear with thousands of watts behind them.
About the room, the paragon I will be auditioning is in a large room with sliding doors that open up to yet another large space, I find the paragon to be most listenable from about 25 feet back. At that distance all the different sounds and ranges seem to blend perfectly together and you are left with a big warm and powerful presentation.
I have to give a lot of credit to the 375 drivers for they are a big part of what I like about the system, they give a clean projecting sound that brings voices to life, if only they could be crossed at 300 Hz.
I still find the midbass region to be a little anemic and I feel this is where I will try and bring the system together, I know that may sound contradictory to what I just said earlier but what I speak of is a matter of balance, I feel the warm overtones of singers and string instruments are little disconnected and lacking warmth.
My XPL250 prototype clones are my benchmark at this point although they too are flawed like anything, just the same I've managed to do what I feel is a remarkable job at getting that critical midbass region sounding warm but not heavy or bulky so it is quite a contrast for me to walk downstairs and listen to the 50s Buick!
I cannot decide whether or not I like the 075 ring radiators where they are, on orchestral/classical material they seem disconnected but not necessarily in a bad way, they seem to add air or space to the presentation almost like a cheesy super tweeter, unfortunately they are still playing overtones and residences of instruments and therefore I expect them to be connected and seamless with the rest of the presentation.
I plan on bypassing N7000 and going straight into the LX5 with the 375's and let them play all the way up, just for shits, should be interesting.
Newzenith.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Yeah but some people can never seem to get a driver or a great system to sound right no matter advice they are given. Go figure.

Getting 99 % out of what you've got is perhaps the hard part and it's the 1% (the impurities and little differences) that piss you off, drive you around the bend and keep the industry afloat.

I find it odd that a really good modern hifi loudspeaker and a so called really good vintage loudspeaker can both sound excellent in a proper acoustic theatre seating 500 people.

I tried that once with a pair of 4343's but unfortunately the house system an Altec VOTT was totally blown away according to the house engineer.... He hated me that the first year but the client (The Victorian Ballet School) insisted on having the 4343's back for the next 5 annual concerts.