Paragon Project Complete...

[paragon]

Hmm, i `ve herad them with her original crossovers and Le15a, 375, 075 components. I doen`t miss anything exept low bass, really.
Heared them against the big Lowther enclosure.

[frank23]

hi alan,

I don't read it in your post, but could it be that you had the bass drivers reconed? My experience is that they have too loosen up over some time [say a month or more] before they settle in their intended characteristics. Especiallly resonance frequency will be higher when just reconed and as we know, the response drops of at about that frequency.

greetings, Frank

[Mr. Widget]

Most of you have probably seen this letter as it was posted on a similar thread some months ago.

As for the sound of the Paragon... you may find it fun to listen to with tube amps and a vintage turntable etc. but it isn't going to sound as accurate as any contemporary $2K a pair speakers.

It is a beautiful piece of sculpture. It is a wonderful piece of history, but it is not a contemporary piece of high end audio reproduction equipment. This isn't to say you can't find it fun to listen to, but don't expect B+W Nautilus performance.


Widget

[Rolf]

Hi Allan. As an former owner of the Paragon I like to say a few words. I am not as tecnical as many other members, but I have good ears.

And it sounds AWFUL!

I would have expected this speaker to come to life after putting some real gear in front of it. Here is what we did:

-Removed LE15's and replaced with original 150-4c's
-Triamped the speaker using:

Hafler 9505 -low
Hafler 9300 -mid
Hafler P-3000 - high
Ashly XR-2001 for active network-A

First you got to get your hands of somthing that matches the Paragon. Not the abowe amps. The crossover you use I know noting about.

I used at first a brand you probably never heard about, The Sonotron, made in Norway, 100w pc 8ohm. (Company gone for years ago). Then 2 Kenwood L09 mono poweramps using MOSFETS, 300w pc 8ohm. Both sounds very good, but with the Kenwoods I could play at concert levels...if I wanted to.

On both power-amps I used a DB-Systems Pre-Amp.

I never tried to use electronic crossovers, and I believe it not a good idea on this system.

First of all, it produces almost NO bottom end whatsoever, appearing to begin rolling off around 70Hz. Second, although it produces alot of detail and is extremely efficient, and although it does cover the room well from all listening positions, classical is a stretch and pop is out of the question. I went home with a headache last night.
-A

What you have done to make the Paragon sound as you descibe, I do not know, but from LISTENIGS test with Audio Tecnica Audio CD I found the respons of the woofer usefull to about 30-35 Hz. My Paragon was equiped with the LE15A woofer.

Is this the way the beloved Paragon is supposed to sound? Is there a way to make this speaker sound right, or is it destined for eBay?
-A

Do not put it on eBay...If you think is sounds like crap...Give it to me, I'll take it for the shiping price.

Regards

Rolf

[scott fitlin]

I have to agree with Rolf and Steve Shcell! The JBL 075, or 2402, does not need alot of power, 1 watt will make them sing. The Hafler P-3000 is too big for those tweeters! Same thing applies to the 375! I wish I were near you, so I could bring over what I consider a suitable amp for those tweets! I use bullet tweeters in my place, and whenever I go to bigger and better amps, even though i may not be pushing them more than a couple of watts, they get harsh sounding! As well as my bass becomes anemic and thin sounding ( lack of deepness ), but those old speakers like to be mated to amps that are low power, and preferably of a vintage at or around their time of manufacture. Horn systems are funny this way!I agree if you tried the right tube amps, or SS amps, you might hear a completely different sonic landscape! Will it make you love the paragon? I dont know, but I am sure there is better to get out of it, than what you getting right now!

I would move the P-3000 to the 375,s and try a crown D-75 on the JBL 075,s! The P-3000 is slightly more power than the D-150 I use on my 2441,s! And I run SIX 2441/2395,s on 1 crown D-150! I have plenty of midrange! Nothing lacking in terms of output here, but I have tried to increase the amp size to todays proper standards, and always without success! Horns become irritating sounding!

I run my 2402,s on Crown Power Line-2,s rated at 50wpc@8ohms, and have four 2402,s per channel of each amp, nominal 12.5 watts per tweeter, and they sound great! I have tried Bryston 3B,s on my tweeters, Crown D-150,s and BGW 350,s and always I go back to my little Crown PL-2,s, as the bullets just become too loud and harsh sounding! Those 075,s are efficient, and dont need much power at all to put out high SPL.

I might also tend to think that 12db slopes on the woofers and 18db slopes on the 375,s and 075,s will make for a better sounding Paragon!

[Ken Pachkowsky]

Hi Alan,

Don't give up on the Paragon just yet. It is a nice design, with fine components, and can certainly sound much better than you have described it.

Triamping may eventually be the way to go, but again I would do it with tube components, preferably built with simple circuits and high quality parts. Just ask Ken Pachkowsky how he likes his new tube preamp!

Thats for sure. My only complaint was a lack of inputs. I have solved that problem by getting a high end audio switch made by Extron. The switch has 6 pair of rca inputs. That gives me all the line inputs I could possibly need. The MM/MC phono stage is excellent as well.

I am surprised no one else here has tried the Signature Tad 150 preamps?

Good luck on your quest with the Paragon!

Ken

[mikebake]

>>However, I have heard three Paragons, and own one myself. As speakers, they suck by contemporary standards. Like you, I will eventually get around to "playing with" my Paragon in a proper space, but I'm not optimistic about the eventual outcome.<<

Well said. I'm hoping for some encouragement here-- I'm hoping I'm wrong....

But so far,

Frankly, didn't you do the research before trying to make a modern project out of an old design? You certainly didn't expect these to be competitive with modern efforts, did you? An analysis of the drivers and their application in the Paragon design should have prepared you. You don't really see anyone after seriously good (and bang-for-the-buck) sound trying to DIY these much, cabinet complexity notwithstanding. There are far easier ways to get far better sound. To me these things are like some big 50's Buick Roadmaster; not much that can't be easily bettered today for less. But still cool.

[Mr. Widget]

To me these things are like some big 50's Buick Roadmaster; not much that can't be easily bettered today for less. But still cool.

Exactly!


Widget

[pelly3s]

Al do I have to drive down there someday and play with the thing and see what I can make it do. I'll bring a pair of my double 18" cabs with the 2258's in them. lol. I bet a pair of 2245's on the sides of that thing would round out the bottom very nicely.

Totally off the subject, I should have those foams in a couple days for you.

[Alan Fletcher]

Thanks, Bob.

Can't wait to get the L250's running

Anyway, keep in mind, guys, that these are just the amps we have on hand, they were not chosen specifically for use on the Paragon. And somebody mentioned I shouldn't run 375 down to 350Hz-- I'm not. However, at the listening levels we are talking about, assuming the thing could do it properly, it wouldn't do anything to harm the drivers.

All crossovers are 24db/oct. fixed. That may be too tight. In any case, we will probably put it back to factory using the proper factory crossovers and let it be at that. The L250's will be in need of some ampage soon..

Thanks for all the input guys!

-A

[pelly3s]

if you want to play with the paragon some more i can probably make a trip with a DBX Driverack and get all kinds of control. Just an option but lets see what you can do with L250's first

[Steve Schell]

In defense of the Paragon, I will say that I believe it can be made to sound very good indeed. I only heard one on one occasion, but it played large orchestral works with effortless majesty, despite being driven by an inexpensive solid scrape (sorry) rack system. The bass horns, while not reaching that low, portrayed tympani and the like with realism. Dynamic range from lows to highs was very uniform and effortless, better than almost all modern systems.

Sure, the imaging is kind of strange and an acquired taste. I wish the bass horns were longer and larger, ditto for the midrange horns. Still, the Paragon is one of the few examples of a fully front loaded horn system ever to be sold into fine homes in any real quantity. It is tough to design a big horn system that doesn't look like plumber's butt- believe me, I know. The Paragon was well regarded for both its looks and sound, and its creators deserve much credit for this.

[Alan Fletcher]

To Steve:

You definitely have good points there. Don't get me wrong, I love the Paragon, and would be sad to see it go. Let me go into some deeper explanation about my relationship with the Paragon:

(Be warned, some embellishment follows)

The Paragon was my first introduction to JBL. This particular one belongs to my best friend's father, who is now elderly and almost an invalid at this point (which allows us to finally play with it). Through the years, the Paragon was modified, the 150-4C's removed and replaced with LE15's, the original crossovers removed and replaced with N500H's. Fortunately, the original 150-4C's were safely stored in the attic.

In subsequent years, the thing became a home for the cats, who crawled into the bass horns and clawed the surrounds of the LE15 bass drivers. Since as kids, due to circumstances I will not get into here, we had little or no access to the Paragon, I was only able to hear it once or twice as a kid (we're talking 5th grade here). My friend used to talk about the thing like it was descended directly from God Himself, and the first time I saw and heard it, I believed it. Now, with more experienced ears and minds, and better equipment, we wished to make it sound the way we remembered it and bring it back to life. That is the subject of this thread and the result, to our ears, was a great dissappointment.

There you have it...

To Pelly3s:

When we come up to your shop with the drivers, we will probably talk in great detail. Perhaps you can come down sometime and play with the Paragon with us. That's really not my call as it's not my Paragon and it's not my house. I'm sure Bob wouldn't have a problem with that though and I think it would be a heckuvalotta fun!

-A

[Maron Horonzakz]

My Paragon has been around along time. It has 150-4c ,LX-5 xovers , 375 mids 075 tweets. One thing it needed after many years of use. Was to replace those old worn out diaphrams in the mids & tweets. What an improvement that made. The only design flaw in the Paragon is ONLY the 375 mids reflect across the curved panel. A special bracket I made mounted the 075 on the same plane with the mid horn & driver. Rather than spitting out of the bass horn cavity with all its diffraction problems. This really opened up the top octive. Both drivers reflecting off the panel will give better imageing. A TAD 1601a woofer placed in the bottom end gave some improvement. IM not shure changing out TAD 4001 & 703 tweets would help. But for the deep pockets on this forum I would encourage it.

[57BELAIRE]

In my experience, the Paragon seems to be very "placement dependent".

Though my home is predominantly ceramic tile (which adds a whole host of gremlins), I found that simply moving it to another location, against a long wall, improved it's performance.

While it may have been compared to a ''50's Buick" in these pages...that suites me fine....I've got a soft spot for nostalgia