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Thread: Paragon Project Complete...

  1. #1
    Alan Fletcher
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    Paragon Project Complete...

    And it sounds AWFUL!

    I would have expected this speaker to come to life after putting some real gear in front of it. Here is what we did:

    -Removed LE15's and replaced with original 150-4c's
    -Triamped the speaker using:

    Hafler 9505 -low
    Hafler 9300 -mid
    Hafler P-3000 - high
    Ashly XR-2001 for active network

    After dialing in the crossover points and matching levels, the speaker certainly sounded better than it did before (it had the wrong x-overs installed) but it certainly fell way below expectations.

    First of all, it produces almost NO bottom end whatsoever, appearing to begin rolling off around 70Hz. Second, although it produces alot of detail and is extremely efficient, and although it does cover the room well from all listening positions, classical is a stretch and pop is out of the question. I went home with a headache last night.

    Is this the way the beloved Paragon is supposed to sound? Is there a way to make this speaker sound right, or is it destined for eBay?

    -A

  2. #2
    paragon
    Guest

    Rolloff

    I think the rolloff at 70 Hz is ok because of the small dimensions of this bass horn. I tried to sim this horn a time ago. Don`t know dimensions are correct.
    Sim is made standing on the ground and at the wall.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  3. #3
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    What happened to the passive networks??? You using 24DB slopes??? You can't expect below 40Hz out of those horns. Is it up against the wall for the best LF loading??

    Rob

  4. #4
    paragon
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    Rebuild

    I heared a rebuild Paragon a few monts ago with original Le15A and 375 and 075.
    There was no spectacullar Sound at all. Off course no deep bass, but loading to 50 Hz, and very well mid and highs and top stereo imag.
    It was driven by a simple low cost stereo equipment.
    If i have the money, i will buy this. It is a very nice speaker, nobody will know,
    very good looking enclosure.
    Output with low power amps is very high and free of distortion.
    If you want more low try a (high efficient) sub. This is my ultimate dream speaker.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Steve Schell's Avatar
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    Hi Alan,

    Don't give up on the Paragon just yet. It is a nice design, with fine components, and can certainly sound much better than you have described it.

    Flame suit on here... I recommend that you begin again by using the stock crossover and a good vacuum tube amp and preamp. This will give you a baseline of how the speaker sounded originally. Highly efficient drivers do not do so well with high damping factor solid state amps; they are overdamped and can sound sluggish and compressed in the bass and grating in the highs. 70Hz. actually sounds about right on the low end, as the Paragon bass horns are fairly short with small mouths. They will sound fuller with a tube amp though, especially a single ended design with a reasonably high output impedance. You can sample this effect now by placing some resisance in series with your woofer, perhaps a 15 or 20 ohm resistor of at least 5W rating. The bass should sound fuller, more relaxed and perhaps a bit more extended, as the amplifier's grip on the cone is lessened somewhat.

    Triamping may eventually be the way to go, but again I would do it with tube components, preferably built with simple circuits and high quality parts. Just ask Ken Pachkowsky how he likes his new tube preamp!

  6. #6
    RIP 2010 scott fitlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Fletcher
    And it sounds AWFUL!

    I would have expected this speaker to come to life after putting some real gear in front of it. Here is what we did:

    -Removed LE15's and replaced with original 150-4c's
    -Triamped the speaker using:

    Hafler 9505 -low
    Hafler 9300 -mid
    Hafler P-3000 - high
    Ashly XR-2001 for active network

    After dialing in the crossover points and matching levels, the speaker certainly sounded better than it did before (it had the wrong x-overs installed) but it certainly fell way below expectations.

    First of all, it produces almost NO bottom end whatsoever, appearing to begin rolling off around 70Hz. Second, although it produces alot of detail and is extremely efficient, and although it does cover the room well from all listening positions, classical is a stretch and pop is out of the question. I went home with a headache last night.

    Is this the way the beloved Paragon is supposed to sound? Is there a way to make this speaker sound right, or is it destined for eBay?

    -A
    Older high efficiency designs do better with lower power amps! Your tweeterr being driven by the Hafler P-3000 rated for 150wpc@8ohms, when you could have used a Hafler Trans Nova 1000 rated for 50wpc@8ohms, older high efficiency horn loaded speakers were designed to produce alot of output with the available power of the day, now you go and properly power the drivers according to todays standards, and the sound becomes thin, hard, etched, and shrill!

    If you had amps like the crown D-75, or D-60 on tweeters, and a put the P-3000 on the mid horns, I think you would hear the Paragon calm down, and the image balance out alot better! This is not to suggest that crown is the only brand you should use, but more of a map of the amounts of power you actually need for the paragons drivers! Even the 150-4C doent need the muscle of the hafler 9500!

    Low power tube amps on the HF ranges would also be nice!
    scottyj

  7. #7
    paragon
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    Paragon

    Isn`t it placed in the New York Museum of Modern Art ?

  8. #8
    Senior Member Jan Daugaard's Avatar
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    Photos, please

    Could we have some photos...?

  9. #9
    Alan Fletcher
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    As far as I can tell, the system needs to be balanced around the 375/H5038, as it is the most prevalent driver/horn combination in the compliment. We did alot of testing, starting by running the 150-4c's full range through the horns. It was immediately apparent that the horns are doing quite a bit of eq of their own. Nothing above 250-300Hz comes through, and what ever little else gets through is simply bounced around, out of phase and essentially ridiculous sounding.

    This leads me to the 375/H5038. Since any attempt to play the LF horns below approx. 350Hz leads to a balky, resonant bump in the low mid, the need to play the 375/H5038's down low enough to meet them results in a very noticeable hole and odd phase characteristics at the crossover point.

    Although power handling at those frequencies is not a problem for the 375, the characteristics of the 5038 horn do not allow for a smooth transition. There seems to be an unbridgeable gap between the LF and MF horns. Play that LF section too high and you get a bulky, heavy nastiness. Play the MF too low and you get a major dip in response along with funky phase characteristics.

    Also, everyone seems to refer to the LE15 as stock LF drivers for the Paragon. The Paragon in question is an early one, serial #212. It was supplied with 150-4c bass drivers (which have now been reinstalled) and then "upgraded" to the LE15. The original LX-5 xovers were changed out with N500H. This is one of the reasons we thought it would sound better with a custom setup such as the one described in my original post.

    I'm curious and intrigued by some of the amplifier recommendations made here, but I do not believe the amplifiers being solid or hollow state is the cause or solution to the problem. If I wished to augment the sound of the speaker artificially, I have plenty of signal processing gear which I could employ, including EQ, phase delays, and distortion emulators. However, I wish to bring this speaker to a decent ballpark before I start playing around with the electronics that power it.

    I'm not seeing that happening.

    More comments more than welcome.

    -A

  10. #10
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    Y'know, I intentionally keep my opinions about "vintage icon" JBL's to myself here, generally, respecting others' prerogative to like what they like, and acknowledging that listening tastes vary.

    However, I have heard three Paragons, and own one myself. As speakers, they suck by contemporary standards. Like you, I will eventually get around to "playing with" my Paragon in a proper space, but I'm not optimistic about the eventual outcome.

    I suspect it'll make a decent conversation-piece center channel, is about all.

    My heirs will no doubt appreciate that I held onto it.

    [I traded S8R's (which also suck, in my view,) and some cash for it about 10 years ago. It may eventually be worth more than the house.... ]

  11. #11
    paragon
    Guest

    ???

    I don`t know what you want? The Paragon is a well listening speaker.
    I always know there is not enough low bass, high limit is off course by the 075.
    But i doen`t miss highs. Where is the problem ?

  12. #12
    Alan Fletcher
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    >>However, I have heard three Paragons, and own one myself. As speakers, they suck by contemporary standards. Like you, I will eventually get around to "playing with" my Paragon in a proper space, but I'm not optimistic about the eventual outcome.<<

    Well said. I'm hoping for some encouragement here-- I'm hoping I'm wrong....

    But so far,

  13. #13
    paragon
    Guest

    Mein Gott

    Braucht Ihr alle nicht arbeiten, erstaunt mich das manche immer noch antworten.
    Sorry, try to translate.
    Does anybody have to work tomorrow ? Its very late (in USA).
    I have to work at 6 o`clock in the morning.
    Think, i have the wrong job !

    Eckhard

  14. #14
    Alan Fletcher
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    To Paragon,

    I fear my friend that you may have unrealistic expectations from this old and venerable loudspeaker. True, it does not lack highs. It does not lack midrange, either. The question is how to get the components to integrate seamlessly. It seems an impossible task. Perhaps with a nice Velodyne 18" sub you could obscure some of the faults of the speaker's low-high transition, but you still have to make the top end of that frontloaded horn meet the low end of the 375/H5038.

    I remember this speaker from my childhood, and it is a disappointment now when once it was wonderful.

    Either I'm crazy, or there are an awful lot of deaf rich people in Japan... -- or maybe that's just "culture"

    -A

  15. #15
    Senior Member Steve Schell's Avatar
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    Hi Alan,

    I'm concerned about your running the 375s down to 350Hz. Don't think there would be much driver loading from the Paragon mid horn down that low, and that resonant bump you've heard is probably the diaphragm going into large excursions at its resonant frequency. I'd stay with at least 500Hz. and 12 dB/octave to protect the diaphragms.

    This is a common problem with front loaded horn systems, getting output from the bass horns up to a high enough frequency to cross over to the mids. Many bass horns poop out by 300Hz. unless the driver mass is very low. The LE-15 drivers may give a little more low bass, but if their cones are heavier then the 150-4C they will probably will have even less top end. Perhaps you could employ some EQ to flatten response to 500Hz. This would not stress the bass drivers, and might allow you to bridge the gap.

    I still recommend that you try some tube gear. Signal processing will not accomplish anything like the same result. Interpreting your comments, I suspect that you may regard the different sound of tubes as resulting from higher distortion or some other defect; there are certainly many people who hold that opinion. My findings have been that good tube gear offers higher resolution, greater dynamic linearity and proper damping with high sensitivity speakers. To me it is a difference not of degree but in kind, a more lifelike listening experience... YMMV.

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