Ok, so apparently the supplement is not available on the site. Here's a screen shot of the last page.
Ok, so apparently the supplement is not available on the site. Here's a screen shot of the last page.
Thanks Ti,Originally Posted by Titanium Dome
Very useful thread that I should have consulted earlier. Biamping and isolating the LF looks easy enough and I would probably use a high quality Sub amp such as an NHT SA-2 or SA-3 and use built in LP filiter set at 100Hz, for example. Would it be difficult to bypass the High Pass filter for the mid bass driver to bring it in at a lower frequency than 170Hz?
I believe that once you put it into bi-amp mode, the external crossover determines the xo point between the woofer and the midbass driver. At least that's how I read the manual.
It wouldn't hurt to ask JBL, if you could find someone who actually remembers these networks.
macaroonie
Is that a Marantz stereo amplifier receiver in the background?
The "Perfect" L7 room?
I recently opened another site in Los Angeles, which means another local office for me. Unlike most of the odd-shaped offices I get, this is a spacious, rectangular box with four solid walls. I decided to take a pair of L7s and power them with a pair of Soundcraftsmen A400 stereo amps (200+W/ch) and a DX4100 preamp.
I was able to replicate the JBL L7 Owner's Manual Supplement almost to a "T" in terms of 3' placement from the walls, 15 degree toe-in, two-amplifier bi-wire hook up, equilateral triangle to listening position, etc.
I hooked it all up, cued up some Ultra Dance, and turned it up to about 1/4.
I gotta say...
Holy... Oh baby... Mother... Boy oh boy... Son of... Un...ing... Oh heck, WOW!!! What an absolute kick!
My assistant came running in, her eyes wide and bright, big, big smile, "Gosh, Doug, are you ready to party?" So, I cranked it to 1/3, and it was amazing. So we partied.
After some significant two-channel listening, I have to conclude that the L7 is one of the best, if not the best bargain in stereo listening ever produced by JBL, at least in the floor-standing four-way consumer category.
As I have stressed over and over again, set up is critical. Add to that significant power and a room that really works, and you've got something special.
In 1992, the XPL200A sold for $1699 each. In 1993, the L7 sold for $975 each. Both years, the 250TiBQ sold for $2499 each. From that time forward, JBL consumer didn't have any four-way in the consumer line up until the Performance Series arrived. A stacked PS1400/PT800 cost $3099. I guess the TL260 is the next four-way (in the same sense that an Everest II DD66000 or K2 S9800 is a two-way). I can't find a USD price for the TL260, but it was quoted at 1999€.
Considering I picked up this particular pair of very good L7s for around $460 a couple of years ago, they were a real steal.
I have been reading this thread because I just picked up a MINT pair of L 7's.The L7 Owner's Manual Supplement spends a little ink on placement of the speakers, then goes on for three and a half pages on "Bi-Wiring and Bi-Amplification." This latter section really covers a lot more than just bi-wiring and bi-amping. Here in L7 Heaven, Part the First, I'll get into placement.
The placement instructions are simple and supported with two detailed drawings. Anyone who reads this and doesn't start with the speakers three feet from the front wall and three feet from the side wall on its respective side, with the side-mounted woofers facing inward, and the fronts angled 10-15 degrees (toe in) is asking for poor performance, and if he complains about it he's a dope. This is the simple, direct, straightforward, diagrammed, optimal placement recommended by the manufacturer. Then put the listener in the 60/60/60 triangle set up JBL recommends in the regular L Series Owner's Manual.
So to the complainers who jam L7s into the corners nearly flat against the side wall: you're idiots!
To the bellyachers who place L7s a foot from the rear wall and four feet from the side walls and three feet from each other with a TV stuck between them: you're morons!
To the whiners who put the woofers facing frontward and the other drivers facing inward: yo, stoopid!
To the gripers who put one next to the wall in the corner and the other two feet forward of the front wall next to an opening into the kitchen: hey, pinhead, get a clue!
The message here is this: PLACEMENT MATTERS.
If you've done any of the above and you're happy, then all I can say is 1) if you're happy, I'm not referring to you and don't mean to offend you, and 2) even if you are happy you could be getting so much more out of these speakers.
Especially on the L7s with their side firing woofers, getting them too close to the front wall increases coupling that results in uneven bass, and getting them too deep into the corners causes boominess. Think about how that side-firing woofer complicates things.Placing physical objects between the two woofers, such as TVs, stands, equipment racks, etc., also interferes with the woofer's operation.
So, yes, it's a picky set up, more than the average consumer wants to bother with. He wants to pull 'em out of the cartons, stick 'em in the corner on either side of the TV, and watch Willy Wonka. Most speakers are arranged according to the needs of the room. With L7s, the room must be arranged according to the needs of the speakers. (That's a bit of an overstatement, but you get my point.)
If the room is right and you've got the 60/60/60 triangle that JBL recommends, you're still not quite done, because every room is different. JBL advises that you can have some leeway of about a foot in fine tuning your sound with regard to soundstage, low bass extension, and treble dispersion and imaging. Again, the average consumer is going to say, "Screw this," turn up the tone controls, and think the problem is solved. By carefully adjusting proximity to room corners (closer/farther) and distance from the front wall (nearer/farther) while maintaining the 60/60/60 triangle if possible, you can really find the best environment that your room will provide for top notch L7 sound. Is this a PITA? Yes. Is it worth the trouble? Absolutely.
After keeping my L7s captive in my room in MI for a couple of years, I decided to do it right and changed the room to optimize the speakers. Holy crap! What a difference!
Who knows? I'm sure it was a conscious design choice to place the woofers on the side to keep the front baffle narrow and the L Series all looking similar. Maybe the marketing people beat out the engineers who wanted the woofers on the front. Can't really say.
What I can say is that this is a fairly unusual design for JBL, one that is not repeated. It makes the L7 fundamentally different from the other L Series speakers, even though driver complements and enclosure features are shared. It makes it harder to set up and less desirable for many consumer living rooms.
All of that being said, it has very good drivers, great crossovers, fine cabinetry, and a terrific sound. When properly set up and driven (see Part the Second) it's an amazing beast, and a bit unlike any other JBL. It will take a ton of power, and I've always chickened out before the speakers, especially since any amp I own will be driven to clip before the L7 is overpowered.
It's definitely one of my top five JBLs.
I HATED my first pair, and I am the one who dogged them on Audio Web.
Maybe on Audio Review too, I do not remember ?
I SOO much wanted to like these JBL's, I REALLY REALLY Did.
I had L 65 Jubals as a kid, and my grandpa had Hartsfields!
Gramps gave me his old Jubals before he died.
My freaking aunt GAVE AWAY the Hartsfields to freaking Catholic Charity
Like the Pope NEEDS more freaking money
Anyway, I HAD them set up right, I assure you, and had em bi amped with very very good stuff.
Good wire too, good pre amp, etc, etc, etc.
My pair sounded flat awful, harsh, bright, and the most horrible sin of all, NO IMAGING.
I must add I have at any time in the last 20 years owned at least 4 other pairs of speakers.
I currently own 14 pairs.
Much as I WANTED to like the JBL's because of my like for the old Jubal L 65's when I was a kid, and having really fond memories of the Hartsfields in my Grampa's Michigan Basement driven by all Mac Tubes, I just hated these L 7's.
Perhaps I got a BAD pair, or they did not like my room ?
I honestly reported on what I heard, but the other day a MINT pair fell in my lap!
They are not hooked up yet, because I have some 9.5 cu ft subwoofers that look like the bottom bass bins of Klipschorns, except they are sealed.
They HAD a TC Sounds LMS 4000 15" driver in them of only 85 db efficiency.
I was running a pair of Ashly FET 500 amps with huhe replacement caps in em bridgd mono, 1500 watts into 4 ohms.
They wanted even MORE power, and made my lights dim, and breakers blow!
Plus, the QTS of this wonderful driver is all wrong for corner placement!
Bass was absolutely scary, but boomy due to corner room gaiin, and high final Q.
So, I replaced em with some cheap Dayton 15's from Parts Express.
They sound EXCELLENT, way better overall bass because final Q is much lower, around .6 instead of .882, so room gain makes em flat!
The efficiency of the Daytons is 92 db vs 85 for the TC Sounds, so there is more mid bass impact.
I have a BASS CD playing in the room, and it is shaking back here in the bedroom, LOL
I will TRY the L7's once again in a new room from what I had before.
This room is much larger, and much deader, and I have even better stuff now then I had back then.
I am NOT a JBL hater, although IF you read my review, and did not know me, you would think I am.
As before, the L 7's will be up against some really good speakers here at my place.
We shall see ????
IF they do good this time, I will of course revise my reviews, or IF I can't, I will simply write another one ?
MAYBE I just got a bad pair.
And yes, mine were mirror imaged, and set up correctly too, as they will be here again at my new place.
I woukld like to download an owners manual, can you help ?
The L Series manual is here:
http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Ow...5%207%20om.pdf
The L7 supplement is here:
http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Ow...Supplement.pdf
As I'm sure you know, these will never sound anything like Jubals (or Hartsfields). It's an entirely different type of speaker. So you could tweak them all day long and still be unhappy with them.
I doubt that you got a bad pair, though anything's possible. More likely, you just don't (or didn't) like the sound.
I believe this is one of your original reviews, this one from AudioReview.com. It sure caused a furor, as I recall.
Summary:
I had high hopes for these based on review in Audio. They dont image, have a plastic coloration,and they just plain suck. the tweeter constanly caLLS ATTENTION TO ITSELF, THE DRIVERS DONT BLEND AND TTHEY SUCK BIG TIME. tHIS IS ANYTHING BUT AN AUDIOPHILE SPEAKER. I made a big mistake buying these mail order without hearing them first. I bi- amped with Krells and Tubes on top, Tubes all the way, and krells full range, used first class source material and they suck! I tried, no I begged the mail order place to take em back and they said no, even as I begged and offered to pay a 20% re-stocking charge! I put them for sale in the Tampa paper and Every audiophile who listened t them said no way, even for 600.00!!!! Finally, A stupid kid who was high on weed and Metallica came over to hear em! I bi- amped the piece of craps with my 2 Krells and I guess He saw God and I dumped these un musical pretenders. I have owned many, many speakers over the years, and very few I disliked as much as these! If you like these, perhaps you spent too much time at rock concerts and no longer can hear! Yes, they are built OK. Too bad, they will unfortunately be around to pollute the ears of our children! Not Mine! JBL was wise to discontinue these. The HLS 610-810, now thats musicical!
Strengths:
-bass
Weaknesses:
imaging, plastic coloration,poor blending of drivers, bright hard sound
Similar Products Used:
Quad 63, electrovoice interface D, Plasmatronics, celestion SL-6, etc,etc
I know you took some heat over there at AudioReview. I know I wasn't happy with what you wrote. That is why I'm so amazed that you came here to get some info and that you gave them a second chance.
The fact that you did this fairly and have posted a new thread with your new impressions shows you have a lot of class and some pretty big balls. For the sake of keeping this info in the L Series thread for easy reference, I'm copying the first post of your new thread here. Thanks for posting it.
God, it is almost 3 am in the morning here in Florida, had to pull the plug.Comparing and contrasting the four-ways I have in the dungeon/shop/garage illustrates why I like so many different speakers. None is perfect because there is no perfect sound, except perhaps the original performance...maybe. :dont-know
L250: It's a beautiful, smooth, balanced speaker with prodigious output. It's weak in the highs by my standards, and the midrange is a bit "tight" and breathless compared to the others. The midbass and woofer are just about perfectly matched, and they are powerful performers.
XPL200: Due to personal preference, the Ti tweeter and midrange sound the best to me. They're open, spacious, articulate, and alive. Their clarity is unparalleled in this group (but the Performance Series will beat them.) Sadly, the midbass is an underachiever and disappoints, while the 12" woofer is an agile performer whose output is quite adequate if not outstanding.
L7: The tweeter is very nice of course, and the midrange is full and front, though the XPL's combo is better. The midbass is just as nice sounding as the L250's and the woofer is every bit as strong as the L250's with the added benefit of covering a narrower frequency band. It is articulate, sharp, and controlled; yet it can really kick out the bass when called upon.
In most rooms, the XPL200 will be a good performer, easily sounding better than the other two in many installations.
The L250 will win in any larger environment. By its very physical appearance it will command the space, and the sound will live up to the appearance. It can create an awesome presence, even today. It will gag in a small environment, strangled to death by the room's choke hold.
The L7 in the right room and set up correctly will knock either of these two out of the house. However, it will take more time and effort to achieve this, and if you're just going to compromise and make them go where they look the best to keep the peace, then don't bother. They will suck, and you'll say they are shitty and shrill, and you'll call me a dumb asswho doesn't know what he's talking about.
These are a rare and unique departure in JBL speaker design. I think the reality check for JBL was that the average person was not going to (be able to) set them up correctly, and then the dumbasses were going to whine and complain and rate them poorly. So why bother?
I have hope that there are people here who would take the time to understand the L7 and take the time and energy to do it right. People who are willing to work to get better sound. People who understand that the room is part of the process, especially with an innovative design approach. People who get why so many people buy Bose and some of the other popular crap brands because they sound the same no matter where you put them or how little effort you put into it. People who own and enjoy L1, L3, and L5 pairs and can see that these wonderful boxes are just the design leftovers from the great and challenging L7, the best expression, the finest example, and the highest achievement of the JBL L Series (1990s).
I just couldn't stop listwening to the L 7's.
My God, what a speaker.
I can't wait for my big Moscode 600 to be fixed.
Some Mullard tubes on these, my Tube Dac and Tube Pre amp, and the 3rd dimension will be in my home.
Lets start getting other L 7 or L 5 owners involved in Cap swaps, etc, to see where we can take these ?
WHAT JBL enginer was respobsible for these ?
I have correspopnded with Sean Olive at Infinity, and he has emailed me response curves taken in the Lab.
These were before his time, but I would be curious to see if I can get a response graph from him ?
Want me to ask Sean ?
He is really cool.
We NEEED to find out what JBL engineers were responsible for our speakers ?
The LACK of a center channel indicated that these were a balls to the walls AUDIO, not home theatre design.
All the talk in the manual about bi amping and wire/tube amps, etc, et, tells us that these were one of JBL's "last shots" at the audiophile market, before they got swallowed up by Harman Int.
Have you seen the crossovers in L 7 ?
What kind of caps are in there ?
The TWEETER cap is ultra important, wonder if JBL could afford to use Poly Caps in L7 ?
Check this out ? http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...7c7c980789ccf9
Here is someone else bad mouthing them, LOL
This "guru" is telling the guy interested in L 7's that ANY under 500 dollar speaker mentioned in this newsgroup will be better then an L7.
I USED to think that way too, based on what I heard from my mail order pair.
It will be cool to see WHAT engineer was responsible for these, maybe track him down, and perhaps even get him on the forum ?
Whoever voiced these can hear, and hear well.
They did their best to overcome the cabinet coloration's inevitable in a tower design at this price point.
But the crossover is dead nuts!
Vocals are smooth as glass, and imaging can be spooky.
WE need to find WHO designed OUR speakers, and WHAT the real story was of the L series.
Was it supposed to really be a high end design that accidentally wound up at Circuit City, or what ?
Thank GOD you can edit your reviews.
http://www.audioweb.com/Review/Revie...reviewid=17383
The bad one is gone, replaced by this one!
Do Not forget the Studio Series S412 - very nice 4 way speaker
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