JBL L Series (1990s)

[Rex Everything]

I let my L7's go as they were pretty beat in looks but did sound good. I don't think my room was big enough for them though they were very nice sounding and to me leagues above the L5's Sonance has. I am very pleased with my 240Ti's. They sound excellent and reproduce most if not all of what I listen to on them. I would love to have the extra 8" found in the 250Ti's and probably will have a pair when I'm lucky enough to find them in my budget.

Sonance's Alon's are a very sweet sounding and looking pair of speakers. I really want to hear them and the 240Ti's in the same room on the same system but neither Sonance or myself are much for draggin our prized speakers across town.

[JBLAddict]

No ganging up. Just a healthy discussion on the merits of ultra low register bass in stereo application.

You made the point about preferring 2 speakers that go down to 20Hz for stereo music application. I am asking even among the acknowledged great speakers, money no object, which go to even to 22Hz. And second, in what genre and percent of all music are there even tones as low as 25Hz for it to be a useful capability. And I guess third, how much power you would need to accurately reproduce a flat response even if the speaker was capable?

I love my Performance Series stereo stacks because the PT800 produces amazingly clear and accurate noise above 130Hz and leaves the balance to a matched LF PS1400 that goes to 28Hz and has it's own 600W source to ensure supply when there is a demand. Not to get too far off topic as I know some here went a step further and mated PT800s with Sub1500 but the premise is the same. I have a small amount of dance/trance/electronica music that has some really low, albeit synthetically generated tones but only in this instance(non instrument tones) are those frequencies actually part of the input.

Lastly, I fully admit that if there's anyone on this and most forums that has something to learn, it is me. And if there is an aspect of stereo enjoyment that I'm missing I sincerely want to understand the basis, so I can start plotting my next gear move........

[Sonance'84]

Sorry for how off topic this is getting.

You made the point about preferring 2 speakers that go down to 20Hz for stereo music application.

I didn't make a point of preferring those 2 specific speakers...I was just answering a question that TIdome asked about what speakers I had heard that can get down into the 20Hz range. Although, I do prefer these Alon IV's to any other speaker I have tried in my system (and within my budget), hands down.

I am asking even among the acknowledged great speakers, money no object, which go to even to 22Hz.

These are all new 2010/2011 models... (just a few)

- Vandersteen 3A Signature (26Hz)
- Magnepan 20.1 (25Hz)
- Vandersteen 5A (22Hz)
- Usher Be-20 (22Hz)
- Revel Salon2 (23Hz)
- Vienna Acoustics "The Music" (22Hz)
- Wilson Sasha (20Hz)
- Hansen The Prince V2 (23Hz)
- Vandersteen Model 7 (22Hz)
- Nola Baby Grand (20Hz) <--- formerly Alon
- MBL 101 E MkII (24Hz)
- Wilson MAXX 3 (19.5Hz)
- Magico M5 (22Hz)
- Verity Lohengrin II (15Hz)
- Wilson Alexandria X-2 Series 2 (19.5Hz)
- Focal Grande Utopia EM (18Hz)
- MBL 101 X-Tremes (20Hz)

And second, in what genre and percent of all music are there even tones as low as 25Hz for it to be a useful capability.

As stated, I listen to all kinds of music. As for the music that does require extended bass response...I have been listening to a healthy does of electronic, ambient and heavy synth styles lately. Even the jam/rock bands I listen to have keyboardists that use synth sounds that can get pretty low. Heck, even when a bass player hits that 6th string, you want to know it. It's not like I listen to low bass only/all the time...but when there is a passage that has ultra low bass in it, I'd like it to be reproduced by my speakers (to the best of their ability).

Just like if I had a 700HP Corvette ZR1...I wouldn't be driving around at 100+mph all the time, but knowing that I could reach 200 in that car when I wanted to is all that matters. I want my speakers to perform when called upon, which the L5's clearly couldn't do in the low end department.

And I guess third, how much power you would need to accurately reproduce a flat response even if the speaker was capable?

According to my speakers, the Alon IV...the builder says 100wpc minimum, but 200wpc is recommended. I use a 200wpc OCM 500 amp with them and they just sing. It has a power transformer that would make most mono blocks jealous, literally.

There is no doubt that these Alons produce sounds in the low bass region which weren't as noticeable with my Fortes, and they do so with authority. They also have a cleaner and flatter response than the Fortes. It was a no brainer to make these my new main speakers.

----------------------------------------------

I'd also like to add that a lot of designers employ sharp subsonic cut-off filters into their design, keeping the power focused on reproducing the main human audible frequency. Some, as stated, use ultra high bandwidth designs. Both proving that there are some ultra low frequencies passing through the electronics during certain passages.

And, I'll say it again...I don't just listen to ultra low bass all the time, but when called upon, I'd like my speakers to perform as best they can for my budget and listening area.

You guys picked out that I wasn't satisfied with the bass on the L5's but read right over my thoughts of the rest of the frequency range. I'm just as concerned with the mid and high FR as I am with the low end. I merely shared my opinions about the shortcomings of the L5s...but I guess I'm a little picky.

[Sonance'84]

I've never heard the 240Ti but seems most only reference it wrt how inferior it is to it's 4 way brother.

What 4-way brother are you talking about...the 250Ti? If so, then yes, I would probably agree. But, I've never heard 250Ti's.

[hjames]

The thread is 1990 L series - Alon aint them!!

Please move this to a NEW THREAD All Aboot Alon, si?

Sorry for how off topic this is getting.



I didn't make a point of preferring those 2 specific speakers...I was just answering a question that TIdome asked about what speakers I had heard that can get down into the 20Hz range. Although, I do prefer these Alon IV's to any other speaker I have tried in my system (and within my budget), hands down.



These are all new 2010/2011 models... (just a few)

- Vandersteen 3A Signature (26Hz)
- Magnepan 20.1 (25Hz)
- Vandersteen 5A (22Hz)
- Usher Be-20 (22Hz)
- Revel Salon2 (23Hz)
- Vienna Acoustics "The Music" (22Hz)
- Wilson Sasha (20Hz)
- Hansen The Prince V2 (23Hz)
- Vandersteen Model 7 (22Hz)
- Nola Baby Grand (20Hz) <--- formerly Alon
- MBL 101 E MkII (24Hz)
- Wilson MAXX 3 (19.5Hz)
- Magico M5 (22Hz)
- Verity Lohengrin II (15Hz)
- Wilson Alexandria X-2 Series 2 (19.5Hz)
- Focal Grande Utopia EM (18Hz)
- MBL 101 X-Tremes (20Hz)




As stated, I listen to all kinds of music. As for the music that does require extended bass response...I have been listening to a healthy does of electronic, ambient and heavy synth styles lately. Even the jam/rock bands I listen to have keyboardists that use synth sounds that can get pretty low. Heck, even when a bass player hits that 6th string, you want to know it. It's not like I listen to low bass only/all the time...but when there is a passage that has ultra low bass in it, I'd like it to be reproduced by my speakers (to the best of their ability).

Just like if I had a 700HP Corvette ZR1...I wouldn't be driving around at 100+mph all the time, but knowing that I could reach 200 in that car when I wanted to is all that matters. I want my speakers to perform when called upon, which the L5's clearly couldn't do in the low end department.



According to my speakers, the Alon IV...the builder says 100wpc minimum, but 200wpc is recommended. I use a 200wpc OCM 500 amp with them and they just sing. It has a power transformer that would make most mono blocks jealous, literally.

There is no doubt that these Alons produce sounds in the low bass region which weren't as noticeable with my Fortes, and they do so with authority. They also have a cleaner and flatter response than the Fortes. It was a no brainer to make these my new main speakers.

----------------------------------------------

I'd also like to add that a lot of designers employ sharp subsonic cut-off filters into their design, keeping the power focused on reproducing the main human audible frequency. Some, as stated, use ultra high bandwidth designs. Both proving that there are some ultra low frequencies passing through the electronics during certain passages.

And, I'll say it again...I don't just listen to ultra low bass all the time, but when called upon, I'd like my speakers to perform as best they can for my budget and listening area.

You guys picked out that I wasn't satisfied with the bass on the L5's but read right over my thoughts of the rest of the frequency range. I'm just as concerned with the mid and high FR as I am with the low end. I merely shared my opinions about the shortcomings of the L5s...but I guess I'm a little picky.

[JBLAddict]

yes, 250Ti

again, no there is no discussion on the L5, it has it's LF limits, is not an L7, nor comparable to any remarkable LF capable system, just does a nice job for it's design/cost limits.....that's all I was sezzin'

thanks for the list of big name speaker specs, saves me a lot of time researching

if the Alon is really all that, it was a smoking deal even at the MSRP of 3500/pr back in 96, congrats on your score

Fully understand the Vet analogy, and concur, but aside from having a variety of music that "goes pretty low" the quantitative/fundamental to this whole discussion question remains, does any of the music have tones below 25Hz for it to be a useful feature of stereo speakers, regardless of whether it's one song on one disc, or in many tracks and so low you can only feel the vibration but not hear it. If that can be stated affirmatively and with backing, I'll start saving now.....

and lastly agree that this has moved too far past the relevance of the thread, but a good discussion nonetheless

[Titanium Dome]

I am very pleased with my 240Ti's. They sound excellent and reproduce most if not all of what I listen to on them. I would love to have the extra 8" found in the 250Ti's and probably will have a pair when I'm lucky enough to find them in my budget.

Sonance's Alon's are a very sweet sounding and looking pair of speakers. I really want to hear them and the 240Ti's in the same room on the same system but neither Sonance or myself are much for draggin our prized speakers across town.

What 4-way brother are you talking about...the 250Ti? If so, then yes, I would probably agree. But, I've never heard 250Ti's.

Well, you live in the same town, right? Next time I'm in Vegas, shall I rent a van and meet you guys? I think the 240Tis would be the easier move, but I don't know who has stairs, narrow doors, ankle-nipping dogs, etc.

When I take my 240Tis out of the box for a meet in my home, they're usually one of the first demos I give, and they are a surprise to many of the guests who may not have heard any JBLs since the L100-200-300 era. Even though I keep the L7s and L5s out all the time, I still wouldn't want to part with the 240Tis, because they do have something special, too. It's just "different" special.

Once they hear the L250 or the PT250, of course there's no going back, but by itself the 240Ti makes a good impression, especially compared to the bookshelf or thin floorstanders they're used to.

I know I've beaten this drum a number of times in this thread, so what's one more pounding? It is after all an L Series thread. In the right room with the right placement and the right amount of power, the L7 is hard to beat. However, in the wrong room or with the wrong placement, it's just another good speaker.

[tom1040]

yes, 250Ti

again, no there is no discussion on the L5, it has it's LF limits, is not an L7, nor comparable to any remarkable LF capable system, just does a nice job for it's design/cost limits.....that's all I was sezzin'

thanks for the list of big name speaker specs, saves me a lot of time researching

if the Alon is really all that, it was a smoking deal even at the MSRP of 3500/pr back in 96, congrats on your score

Fully understand the Vet analogy, and concur, but aside from having a variety of music that "goes pretty low" the quantitative/fundamental to this whole discussion question remains, does any of the music have tones below 25Hz for it to be a useful feature of stereo speakers, regardless of whether it's one song on one disc, or in many tracks and so low you can only feel the vibration but not hear it. If that can be stated affirmatively and with backing, I'll start saving now.....

and lastly agree that this has moved too far past the relevance of the thread, but a good discussion nonetheless

Agreed. My solution...a sub..with my 1400 Array . Array 1500.

[Rex Everything]

Well, you live in the same town, right? Next time I'm in Vegas, shall I rent a van and meet you guys? I think the 240Tis would be the easier move, but I don't know who has stairs, narrow doors, ankle-nipping dogs, etc.

When I take my 240Tis out of the box for a meet in my home, they're usually one of the first demos I give, and they are a surprise to many of the guests who may not have heard any JBLs since the L100-200-300 era. Even though I keep the L7s and L5s out all the time, I still wouldn't want to part with the 240Tis, because they do have something special, too. It's just "different" special.

Once they hear the L250 or the PT250, of course there's no going back, but by itself the 240Ti makes a good impression, especially compared to the bookshelf or thin floorstanders they're used to.

I know I've beaten this drum a number of times in this thread, so what's one more pounding? It is after all an L Series thread. In the right room with the right placement and the right amount of power, the L7 is hard to beat. However, in the wrong room or with the wrong placement, it's just another good speaker.

Get the van and come on by The 240Ti's would be much easier to move. No steps at either place.

I liked the L7's and might have been able to make them work but they had been a party speaker and were far beyond my ability to get the cabs looking good again. They were missing the bases also. They did sound good and if I found another pair in the price range that looked good I might scoop them up.

The 240Ti's were a lucky grab. They needed the foam so I sent them off to Ken at Upland. While waiting I recapped them with SoniCaps for the fun of it. I'd love to have a pair of 250Ti's and keep an eye out for them.

[Sonance'84]

The thread is 1990 L series - Alon aint them!!

Please move this to a NEW THREAD All Aboot Alon, si?

I didn't come in here starting a discussion about Alons...I stated my opinions about the L5, then the L7. I got questioned and the Alons just happened to come up in the context, as did a bunch of other speakers. I said it was off topic a while back. I have no urge to start a whole new thread about Alon IVs and this should not be moved, as it was just a little veer off topic, that's it.

Back to the 1990 L series!!

again, no there is no discussion on the L5, it has it's LF limits, is not an L7, nor comparable to any remarkable LF capable system, just does a nice job for it's design/cost limits.....that's all I was sezzin'

Fully understand the Vet analogy, and concur, but aside from having a variety of music that "goes pretty low" the quantitative/fundamental to this whole discussion question remains, does any of the music have tones below 25Hz for it to be a useful feature of stereo speakers, regardless of whether it's one song on one disc, or in many tracks and so low you can only feel the vibration but not hear it. If that can be stated affirmatively and with backing, I'll start saving now.....

I totally agree on what's been said about the L5 and L7.

As for the second part...that is a good question. I think some genres do have music tones that go that low, like some the the types I stated above. It would be cool to somehow test certain passages to see how low they actually get compared to what we think its reaching down to. I'd love to hear a demo on one of those 15Hz or 18Hz speakers.

Well, you live in the same town, right? Next time I'm in Vegas, shall I rent a van and meet you guys? I think the 240Tis would be the easier move, but I don't know who has stairs, narrow doors, ankle-nipping dogs, etc.

I know I've beaten this drum a number of times in this thread, so what's one more pounding? It is after all an L Series thread. In the right room with the right placement and the right amount of power, the L7 is hard to beat. However, in the wrong room or with the wrong placement, it's just another good speaker.

Yeah, about 15 minutes from each other. I'm cool with having a demo of both speakers, anytime.

I feel that same way about the L7s.

The 240Ti's were a lucky grab. They needed the foam so I sent them off to Ken at Upland. While waiting I recapped them with SoniCaps for the fun of it. I'd love to have a pair of 250Ti's and keep an eye out for them.

Definitely a great find even though they needed work, but knowing they are up to spec gives you peace of mind. Not to mention they sound great too.

Even I keep an eye out for 250Ti's.

I really would love to hear some of the bigger JBLs, i.e. PT250's or anything in the Synthesis series.

[Rex Everything]

Definitely a great find even though they needed work, but knowing they are up to spec gives you peace of mind. Not to mention they sound great too.

Even I keep an eye out for 250Ti's.

I really would love to hear some of the bigger JBLs, i.e. PT250's or anything in the Synthesis series.

Now I just need to get the cabs refinished

I'm with ya on the bigger JBL's!

[Speakerasaurus]

Wow, after going through a dozen or so pages of this, it has been interesting to see what the comments have been. The 90s vintage L Series line was kind of an enigma. They were a mix of old-school electronic elements with new-school design. The design crew was younger, but were pretty loyal to the, at that time, longstanding record of the engineers that went before them. There were definite winners, and a couple of mixed bags. One of the tradeoffs with this line vs the other L Series product before them was that this is the least efficient line of them all. They needed real power to get them to work right, which, in a sense, was part of their downfall.

Overall, the L1 is the "standout", with the only real shortfall being that it comes on the port pretty hard. It provides good usable bass below 50Hz, and is very punchy and dynamic with a solid amp. The voicing is pretty close to "spot on" to my ears, with only the port tuning kind of messing the presentation up a bit. However, it does make them kind of fun to listen to.

The L3 is the "clunker" of the line. It should have been a 3 way, since the off axis midrange is a bit lacking. It should have been a 3 way with the 6" woofer, but that blew the budget a bit, and the emphasis was placed on a more pronounced bass output, which essentially made it a moderized version of the old L60T, which had the same problems (but was still a speaker I liked in the day). It's not a bad speaker at all, the others are just more "put together" sonically. In the big picture, it's actually a nice improvement from the old L60T.

The L5 is the other "standout" speaker. It suffers from a bit of overcomplexity, but it's not as demanding to drive as the L7, is far less room sensitive, and has a much higher WAF. They got the crossover right in spite of it all, and with sufficient power, is a very nice speaker.

The L7 is the hard one to pin down. With BIG amplification, proper set-up, and decent gear on the front end, the results can be fabulous. The vast majority are being driven by receivers, not properly set up, and not even coming close to their potential. It was a statement product in a sense, but the distribution network that JBL had at the time wasn't really set up to handle the speaker's demands. It was a great product, but it was exactly the wrong product for their distribution at the time.

The CL505 center was a "punt". It was built to budget to try to move the L Series into the home theater domain. It had the form factor, but not the performance needed to keep up with even the L1s, and the voicing was "off", largely because of the different drivers. Again, something that was dictated due to distribution, since a real L series center would have retailed for well over $400, if not $500, and Circuit City woudn't have stocked it. The bulk of the L Series of this vintage was sold through Circuit in the US. It was better than nothing.

BTW, I've heard the L7 on a big Threshold amp, properly set up. Yeah, it works. It works well. You just have to feed it.

[Titanium Dome]

The bulk of the L Series of this vintage was sold through Circuit in the US. It was better than nothing.

BTW, I've heard the L7 on a big Threshold amp, properly set up. Yeah, it works. It works well. You just have to feed it.

Got mine at the small Midwest chain, ABC Warehouse, which was even less capable than CC. They couldn't sell them to save their souls, which worked out well for me: a pair of L7s, a big Soundcraftsmen amp, and a set of very expensive speaker cables for just over $1000. It was an insane deal at the time.

Your last line is right on the money.

[BMWCCA]

Wow, after going through a dozen or so pages of this . . .

I pretty much agree with you, especially on the L3 though I hold even a lower opinion of the L60T than you do!

I hope we can keep up this charade of the L7 being the difficult child a little longer because so far I've only found two pair of them locally I was able to buy for $200, or less. I don't need any more, but I'd buy 'em if I found 'em. They can use all the power you can feed them but they actually perform reasonably well with just a Crown PS400 in my living room. Can't wait to bi-amp them with four Crowns someday, just for the heck of it. Now that'd be a real lease-breaker!

[Speakerasaurus]

I pretty much agree with you, especially on the L3 though I hold even a lower opinion of the L60T than you do!

I hope we can keep up this charade of the L7 being the difficult child a little longer because so far I've only found two pair of them locally I was able to buy for $200, or less. I don't need any more, but I'd buy 'em if I found 'em. They can use all the power you can feed them but they actually perform reasonably well with just a Crown PS400 in my living room. Can't wait to bi-amp them with four Crowns someday, just for the heck of it. Now that'd be a real lease-breaker!

But a Crown PS400 is hard to quantify powerwise with the term "just". At 60 lbs, it's no limp noodle amp. I've seen a set on a big cheesy Sony HT receiver from that era. Yeah, that was a treat. It didn't shut down, but it wasn't doing much with the L7 either. The woofer did move a bit, it just didn't move enough to make any bass.