JBL L Series (1990s)

[BMWCCA]

So what you're saying is there's really no basis for this statement?

The Pro Power Four is a really good amp, but it's not the equal of the shoebox amps, IMO.

[Titanium Dome]

So what you're saying is there's really no basis for this statement?

No, that's not what I'm saying.

Julian is entitled to his measurements and opinions based on having equipment for a few days in a round robin of rotating gear. I'm entitled to my opinions based on years of ownership and use with the speakers in question.

[JBLAddict]

Haven't listened to the L7s in a while since while the family is away I have the living room—and the 4345s—to myself.

well, in that case, how about a little L7 to 4345 comparison? old school v. new school

[BMWCCA]

well, in that case, how about a little L7 to 4345 comparison? old school v. new school

Umm, that's how my journey to 43xx monitors began: http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...ad.php?t=22268 Heck, aren't they both "old school" these days?

No room in my home to play the 4345s and the L7s together for direct comparison. They're setup in different rooms with their own complete systems. I've learned that many here don't want to hear my enraptured account of my storied 4345 pair, anyway.

I love 'em. They've spoiled me, for sure. I've never heard better. That'll have to suffice. I still enjoy the L7s and they continue to impress as I use them to compare other JBLs using that system (Soundcraftsmen DX4200, (2x) Crown PS-400), such as L96, L80Ts, etc.

[JBLAddict]

Sure.

Caveat: This is not about how LOUD they get, this is about how they sound.

At 100W or even 50W they'll get just about as loud as at 200W, but they're starved for power and for headroom. To me they're a bit shrill and the 100W or less amp is probably driving into distortion as it tries to feed them at loud levels.

At 200W, the speakers hit their stride, running stronger and more evenly. They're not really louder so much as they're better, like an athlete that's fit and fed rather than one coming off a starvation diet.

With my current set up of slightly more than 200W each for the LF and for the MF/HF, the sound is really effortless like an athlete that's fit, fed, rested, and carbo-loaded. It's just smooth, powerful, quick and effortless.

Again, this is with optimal placement. I can't speak to other set ups.

Hope that helps.

I had a forum member recommend an amp w/ a high "dampening factor" for the L7, and read on the L7 audioreview.com page one reviewer stating that since JBL were traditionally highly dampened by design, pairing the L7 with a high dampening factor would make them sound shrill.....well this dampening is a spec I'm completely unfamiliar with, so wondering if anyone can help reconcile these two conflicting pcs. of advice? as you know I bought the Soundcraftsmen S800 ('93 model) and have been pleased, but this dampening thing has me a little confused

[LowPhreak]

^ Damping factor is highly overrated/overhyped, and generally misunderstood. It has been used mostly as a marketing gimmick. Many amp mfg's use various ways to get to high claimed DF specs. Often those reported specs don't wind up amounting to a hill of beans in real-world use, since impedance as a function of frequency response will be all over the map at different frequencies and for different speakers - but the mfg's only give a DF spec for a specific frequency, say 50, 100, or 1000Hz @ a static, "___" ohms resistance. Thus, there's no accurate way to tell exactly how any given amp's output impedance is going to react to your particular speakers across the frequency range.

Any "review" on audioreview.com you have to take with a large block of salt, (and a couple shots of Cuervo). In 80-90% of the ones I've read there, the poster's don't know their asses from their elbows audio-wise. But they think they do, so they go ahead and put up their BS.

Get a respectable amp and see if you like it on your speakers. If not, try another amp. That's the only way to tell whether it'll sound good on your speakers - not from just reading a spec sheet. Specs and parts/topology info with audio gear is useful up to a point, but they alone won't tell you ultimately what the stuff is going to sound like with your components.

[Titanium Dome]

I had a forum member recommend an amp w/ a high "dampening factor" for the L7, and read on the L7 audioreview.com page one reviewer stating that since JBL were traditionally highly dampened by design, pairing the L7 with a high dampening factor would make them sound shrill.....well this dampening is a spec I'm completely unfamiliar with, so wondering if anyone can help reconcile these two conflicting pcs. of advice? as you know I bought the Soundcraftsmen S800 ('93 model) and have been pleased, but this dampening thing has me a little confused

I assume the forum member isn't telling you to wet your speakers, i.e., dampen them. He/she probably means "damping factor." To make matters worse, if your amp is supposed to dampen your speakers, you'll get a hell of a shock. :shock: amps and moisture don't mix.

Okay, now that I've had my fun, that review in audioreview.com is bollocks. I wonder if you mean the one by our old friend Chris T. who got suspended then banned from this forum?

Our friends at Crown have a nice piece on damping factor in support of selling their amps.

http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/amps/damping_factor.pdf

The driver most affected by damping factor would be the LE120H-1 woofer, and it's one of the most versatile and consistent transducers I've ever heard, regardless of amp. IME, it's never met an amp it didn't like.

However, you can switch several amps in and out to see if you like the "sound" of one over the other. I just wouldn't be too concerned about damping factor, especially with regard to shrillness in the HF (I've never heard LF referred to as shrill) since tweeters and small drivers have neither a lot of mass nor a lot of excursion.

[JBLAddict]

the review was no.10 by Jeff Peace located here, not crazy Tampa boy :

http://www.audioreview.com/cat/speak...x.aspx#review0

The L7 sounds wonderful with the Soundcraftsmen 240WPC S800 I picked up, I have no idea what it's dampening factor is since the owners manual hasn't any specs. and the CoC only a few, this not being one of them...(if anyone has a site with amp full specs for various models over the years, would love to have that link!)

The LHF member is a common name, who owns the S3100, 4425, L7 among others, so I respected the advice.

[BMWCCA]

the review was no.10 by Jeff Peace located here, not crazy Tampa boy :

That'll teach you to believe everything you read on the Internets.

T-domes sarcasm and humor were pointed at the misspelling of "damping" factor by yourself and the reviewer you've linked to. It's not "dampening", but damping, like a shock-absorber on a British car: damper, as in curb, check, restrain, restrict, limit, rein, brake, control, etc. In essence, not "dampen" as in "to make wet".

Soundcraftsmen lists the damping factor for my Pro-Power-Four amp at "greater than 200". Since everyone here seems to think the Pro-Power is inferior simply because it has knobs that people seem to lose, I'm sure the S800 much be far greater than that!

[JBLAddict]

That'll teach you to believe everything you read on the Internets.

T-domes sarcasm and humor were pointed at the misspelling of "damping" factor by yourself and the reviewer you've linked to. It's not "dampening", but damping, like a shock-absorber on a British car: damper, as in curb, check, restrain, restrict, limit, rein, brake, control, etc. In essence, not "dampen" as in "to make wet".

Soundcraftsmen lists the damping factor for my Pro-Power-Four amp at "greater than 200". Since everyone here seems to think the Pro-Power is inferior simply because it has knobs that people seem to lose, I'm sure the S800 much be far greater than that!

Thanks for clarifying the grammatic misgivings...well, the internet(s) is/are a series of "tubes" anyway, so moisture flow does make some sense here

the prior Soundcraftsmen line "discussion" I interpreted to be more of paying more for lights, A/B outputs, and/or gain control, in a larger box, rather than pure performance differences manifested as sound reproduction. In that vain, I'd guess the PP line and shoebox units are fairly similar sounding on the L7, though I will admit that I would like the a/b capability of the PP4 to do some comparison among my various speaker families.

btw, you seem to know prices pretty well, do you know the MSRP of my uncommon S800 model of '93?

[BMWCCA]

do you know the MSRP of my uncommon S800 model of '93?

The last price list Soundcraftsmen sent me was from 1/89. It showed the Pro-Power-Four at MSRP of $849 with a 25% discount for ordering direct since I had no local dealer. The Pro-Power-Three was the same amp without the LED meters and listed for $749. The Pro-Power-One was the same amp but in the smaller "shoe-box" design with similar horizontal front-panel vents, power switch, and clip indicators and listed for $579. The 205-watt PCR800 was essentially a Pro-Power-One with just a plain front panel and was listed at an MSRP of $539. I believe the S800 was simply a later name for the PCR800 coinciding with the MTX takeover. That's as close as I can get you!

[JBLAddict]

thanks!!

[Titanium Dome]

The last price list Soundcraftsmen sent me was from 1/89. It showed the Pro-Power-Four at MSRP of $849 with a 25% discount for ordering direct since I had no local dealer. The Pro-Power-Three was the same amp without the LED meters and listed for $749. The Pro-Power-One was the same amp but in the smaller "shoe-box" design with similar horizontal front-panel vents, power switch, and clip indicators and listed for $579. The 205-watt PCR800 was essentially a Pro-Power-One with just a plain front panel and was listed at an MSRP of $539. I believe the S800 was simply a later name for the PCR800 coinciding with the MTX takeover. That's as close as I can get you!

For a guy who likes the Pro Power stuff, you sure got it right! I have some of those catalogs around here, but now I don't have to dig them out.

[BMWCCA]

For a guy who likes the Pro Power stuff, you sure got it right! I have some of those catalogs around here, but now I don't have to dig them out.

It was actually the DX4200 I was after at the time. (I have two now though I prefer the Pro-Power-Four and Pro-EQ-44 to the all-in-one these days.) Never knew when I squirreled away those catalogs that I'd own half the stuff in them decades later!

[Slare]

I've seen a lot of discussion in this thread about passive bi-amping L7's, and have another point to add in it's favor that hasn't been mentioned yet.

I think most folks realize low frequencies are what takes the power, L7's can take ~500-600 watt bass hits without much trouble. One of the added benefits to bi-amping is that by having two amps (even if they are of modest power, say 120w each) running high and low frequencies, you don't have the same problem of a bass hit soaking up all your amp headroom and then having distortion/clipping in the high frequencies because if it.

I think this is why passive biamping even with two modest amplifiers helps "clean" the high volume sound up quality so much. Not to mention making life a little safer for those semi-precious tweeters. If you have a true equal power 7.1 reciever and can do it, I think it's worth the extra wiring hassle.

I'm running a Denon AVR-987 that allows passive biamping using the amp 6 & 7 channels, and the benefit of biamping is pretty clear to me at high volumes, even with the modest ~110wpc amplfiers.

I also have a Kenwood M2A separate that I've ran with them in pure stereo which certainly makes a difference. Unfortunately I don't have enough A/C breaker to handle it along with everything else in my 5.1 setup.

There are good AFFORDABLE 200+wpc separate amps out there, lot of them buried in "old fashioned" component stacks people are just trying to get rid off. If you have L7's there's really not much financial burden in getting them a decent amp.