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Thread: New Project with JBL's 4647 and 2445

  1. #76
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    Thanks for running those 2446/2380 curves, Zilch. They really match JBL's published ones closely. 'Should be just fine for my little PA needs, matched with the 2226H.

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnaec
    Should be just fine for my little PA needs, matched with the 2226H.
    Yup, I'd say "No problem."

    Soon's the forklift charges up, I'll move 'em in for an impedance measurement....
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  3. #78
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    New Project with JBL's 4647 and2445

    Hello People!
    I'm back and ready to complete this project. Well, as far as ready is concerned, we will see if there needs anymore spending as this trip drained me bad. So, we left off knowing that the horns were not the 2380A horns they were suppose to be and also after not having any luck finding the 3115A network.

    This weekend I removed the the 2445 drivers from those horns. I will take their measurements and post here. Some have said they would like to know to help me identify what they actually are. I may have to get a pair of the 2380As or based on suggestions, we will see where we could house those 2445s.

    I'm proud to say that with some stroke of luck, I have come to own a pair of 2405s and a Behringer DEQ 2496 Ultracurve. We will see how these new acqusitions play out with the project. Especially with deciding on a network that will work best with all the other components. Just to refresh us, those are: the 4647 cabs and 2225 woofers and the rest that have been mentioned.

    I have decided not to recone the 2225 after reading and considering the opinions of some friends. I am however very interested in a debate on why it could be considered a wise thing so to do. Who knows, I could be persuaded.

    In brief, can we talk on putting the 2445s and 2405 into cabs/horns and decide on a network that will produce optimum output given the components.
    Let's talk people. I'm listening.
    Micahel


    Quote Originally Posted by Zilch
    Yup, I'd say "No problem."

    Soon's the forklift charges up, I'll move 'em in for an impedance measurement....
    Music, I say, is the first love I will miss, when I die.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by nestawasright
    I have decided not to recone the 2225 after reading and considering the opinions of some friends. I am however very interested in a debate on why it could be considered a wise thing so to do. Who knows, I could be persuaded.
    It's simple really. If you want deep bass you will recone them with 2235 kits or buy different woofers. If you don't care about deep bass, you'll likely be happy with them as they are.


    Widget

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    New Project with JBL's 4647 and2445

    The thing is I do want deep bass. In fact I dream of hearing much of it when this is done. I'm not sure who reconing would fit with especially the 4647 cabs. Making another pair of cabs, I must say, is not an option. Zilch has done a good job in letting me know who good these are.
    Now you suggested buying different woofers. I would not mind that, but then again we may end up with the same problem of putting woofers in cabs they are not designed for, except of course if they can be found.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget
    It's simple really. If you want deep bass you will recone them with 2235 kits or buy different woofers. If you don't care about deep bass, you'll likely be happy with them as they are.


    Widget
    Music, I say, is the first love I will miss, when I die.

  6. #81
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    Welcome back to the fray, Michael!

    You want deep bass, put 2235H's in those boxes and close two of the four ports. Easily done with Zilch's proprietary port closure devices, available in the plumbing department of your local hardware store, plumbers' test plugs, 3". If you find the bass is TOO deep, you'll just close one of the ports in each cabinet, instead.

    As you see, I played Johnaec's 2446J on 2380A with that configuration and it was fine, using 3110A crossover at 800 Hz. It was clear they would need help for VHF, but it seems you have that solved with 2405. So, you need 3110 crossovers (NOT "A" version, which has HF boost, which you don't need, since you're adding the 2405's,) and 3105 (7 kHz) or 3106 (8 kHz) crossovers to drive your tweeters. Your 2445's may play too "hot," and will require a simple L-Pad to balance with 2235H woofers. Your Behringer RTA will help you get everything working together correctly. Did you get the requisite microphone with it? You'll need a stand and mini-boom as well ($25 at Guitar Center) for accurate readings.

    Regarding the woofers, several options come to mind: 1) buy a pair of 2235H, 2) recone your 2225H's to 2235H, or, 3) buy a pair of 2225 frames to have reconed and sell your good 2225H's after you're satisfied with the completed system.

    Contact this seller, maybe, to find out what he wants for his 2225 frames:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1

    They come available every 3 months or so on eBay, or maybe a forum member has a pair to sell. Same for the 2380A horns and the crossovers. I may have a pair of NIB 3105 or 3106's here I don't need. I'll check.

    It'll cost about $175 apiece to have 2225's reconed, but you'll get half of that back selling your 2225's, maybe more, and you'll have like new 2235H's. That's the best option, I'd say.

    Where you gonna put the 2405's? Consider inverting your cabinets and cutting them into the baffle above (then) the woofer. Right size hole saw will do it. I wouldn't until AFTER you get everything working and decide you like the system, tho....

  7. #82
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    Hey Zilch,

    I have the 4507 cabinet and 2225H (same as the 4647, just that the '47 comes "assembled" with the 2225H installed). Wouldn't a 2235H in that cabinet decrease the "slam" that the 2225 offers? Did you still have the dynamic range with the 2235 as you did with the 2225? I would consider getting 2235Hs and replace my 2225s if I'm not losing that effect.
    What were your impressions?

    Ron

  8. #83
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    Hi Zilch,

    Here's my system;
    JBL 4507 cabinets
    2225H
    2370 horns
    2425J
    3110A

    I inverted the cabinets and cut out the necessary space to insert the 2370/2425. The 3110A is located in the rear cut out. The internal volume is appx. 4.5 ft3 with the addition of the 2370/2425J.
    Would you be so kind and run some plots with the 2235H in this setup? My main concern is that if I do decide to get the2235H, I may need to pad down the 2425J. Something I'm not wanting to do. Secondly, what would the crossover plot look like? In my present system, the crossover is seamless. Again, something I'm not willing to give up.
    As far as a separate subwoofer goes, space is limited at the moment. Others, please feel free to respond.
    Thank's for your input.

    P.S. Not trying to hijack this thread, just to contribute since the subject is now 2235H related.

    Ron

  9. #84
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    Some additional information on the 4507. The ports x (4) are;

    3" in diameter
    6" long

    Tuned to 40 Hz

    Ron

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbl
    I have the 4507 cabinet and 2225H (same as the 4647, just that the '47 comes "assembled" with the 2225H installed). Wouldn't a 2235H in that cabinet decrease the "slam" that the 2225 offers? Did you still have the dynamic range with the 2235 as you did with the 2225? I would consider getting 2235Hs and replace my 2225s if I'm not losing that effect.
    What were your impressions?
    I understand what you mean about "slam." The 2226H's that came in my 4647's now reside in my 4691B "Party" speakers tuned at 40 Hz. However, they are also supplemented with SUB1500's in retuned 4625B's.

    There's a tradeoff, of course. 2235H is an extended bass design using the same motor as 2225. I've always considered 2225/6 more of a high-SPL sound reinforcement woofer, and 2235 as a monitor/hi-fi woofer. There's a substantial difference in the sound. Giskard and others with more knowledge of the actual technical differences may be able to offer more guidance here.

    However, a virtue of the 4507 box is that it is easily retuned to use the 2235 in different ways. With two ports closed, it's more like B380 tuning. With just one closed, it approximates 4430 tuning, with "tighter," less extended bass. Giskard has suggested plugging one of the 4430 ports to give them more "Hi-fi" than "monitor" character. 4507 lets you do similar.

    My recommendation is the same: Don't recone your good 2225's, rather, buy some thrashed ones to make 2235H's (your reconer may have some, actually,) and try the various options. If you find you've lost the slam you like, and don't like the new sound better (an important qualification, as you may discover it is actually more pleasanty realistic,) you may be able to sell them for more than you have invested in them.

    Those boxes and some plumbers' test plugs afford you an excellent opportunity to discover and evaluate a range of bass voicings, and it's not going to cost much in the end to take advantage of that for your own pleasure....

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbl
    I inverted the cabinets and cut out the necessary space to insert the 2370/2425. The 3110A is located in the rear cut out. The internal volume is appx. 4.5 ft3 with the addition of the 2370/2425J.

    Would you be so kind and run some plots with the 2235H in this setup?
    Sure. I'll try to get to it this week, and I may have a UHF suggestion for you as well. Let me try it out, first, tho.

    Have you posted a pic of your system in this thread? I'm sure Michael and others would like to see what you have done with your 2507 boxes....

  12. #87
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    New Project with JBL's 4647 and 2445

    Quote Originally Posted by Zilch
    I understand what you mean about "slam." The 2226H's that came in my 4647's now reside in my 4691B "Party" speakers tuned at 40 Hz. However, they are also supplemented with SUB1500's in retuned 4625B's.

    There's a tradeoff, of course. 2235H is an extended bass design using the same motor as 2225. I've always considered 2225/6 more of a sound reinforcement woofer, and 2235 as a monitor/hi-fi woofer. Giskard and others with more knowledge of the differences may be able to offer more guidance here.

    However, a virtue of the 4507 box is that it is easily retuned to use the 2235 in different ways. With two ports closed, it's more like B380 tuning. With just one closed, it approximates 4430 tuning, with "tighter," less extended bass. Giskard has suggested plugging one of the 4430 ports to give them more "Hi-fi" than "monitor" character. 4507 lets you do similar.

    My recommendation is the same: Don't recone your good 2225's, rather, buy some thrashed ones to make 2235H's (your reconer may have some, actually,) and try the various options. If you find you've lost the slam you like, and don't like the new sound (an important qualification, as you may discover it is actually more pleasanty realistic,) you may be able to sell them for more than you have in them. Those boxes and some plumbers' test plugs afford you an excellent opportunity to evaluate a range of bass voicings.
    Ron: Don't worry about "hijacking" this thread. You're actually asking some of the questions that came to mind having read Zilch's earlier post in which he suggested networks. Personally for me regarding this, I seem to be going back and forth. Yesterday Mr. Widget made is real simple: if you want extended bass, you'd have to do something about it. The 2225 simply would not do it. So since line Ron, space is a great issue, I'm thinking of getting some 2225 to recone to 2235H. Frankly, I'm scared to recone mine. I can't live without that promising bass, I simply can't. I am however not yet sold on the idea that 2235s will work great in 4647 cabs. I note Zilch did not mention about retuning these. Something seem wrong there. Not quite sure yet.

    About those networks; is it not possible that we could find just one network that would do the job of two? For instance, I've been reading up on the 4355 and 4345 to see how well they may work. What are the opinions of others on the matter.

    Also, any ideas on whether it's a great idea to build cabs for the 2445 or must I have to buy the horns.

    With respect to cabbing the 2405, anyone out there with specs on building cabs for 'em sweet things?

    Please find attached the pictures of the horns that some had said they would help to identify. The measurements are as follows:
    The driver sits on a 5" wide circular space and has space for four screws used to screw the driver.
    It is 2 feet 7" long.
    The front end is 2 feet wide and 1 foot 2 inches high.
    Sorrry guys, pictures are too big and they won't upload. Until I figure this out, you can look at the ones from earlier and use the measurements. Or send me your E-mail address and I will zip and send. Who knows, I may be sitting on millions Your help in locating the cash is immensely appreciated.
    Music, I say, is the first love I will miss, when I die.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by nestawasright
    I am however not yet sold on the idea that 2235s will work great in 4647 cabs. I note Zilch did not mention about retuning these.
    Yeah, I did, very early on, in post #23:

    Quote Originally Posted by Zilch
    I DO know the 2225/6H in that box, and you'll likely find you'll want to add a subwoofer to your system for best performance, or replace the woofer and retune the box as I'll be describing in the Q&D thread. 2226H will not provide extended bass, but that which it DOES provide is highly accurate and articulate. Read punchy and dynamic here.
    And described it more here:

    http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...9&postcount=71

    Showing it done here:

    http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...4&postcount=75

    More info about it over in the Q&D 4430 thread with design curves, RTA plots, and all that COOL stuff....

    http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...162&#post80162

  14. #89
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    Thumbs up

    Thank's for your time, Zilch. I like what you did with those 4507 cabinets! By adding the horn and compression driver into the cabinet, the system is now a 4671 OK.
    Mike should listen to his system first then decide what to do. It's interesting that some feel that even the 4430 needs help in the low frequency range. I guess everything is relative. There are major trade offs that need to be considered. The best thing to do is take your time and listen to all opinions from knowlegable members such as Zilch. His experience is top notch.

    Ron

  15. #90
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    Anyone near Minnesota want to play along?

    http://cgi.ebay.com/Pair-of-JBL-2225...QQcmdZViewItem

    May hafta win the drivers to get the cabs, tho....
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