Looking for Mid-Bass Impact

[Roddyama]

I'm looking for better mid-bass impact. This has been an ongoing quest for me for quite a number of years now. I wish to reproduce the crack of the snare drum. You know that sound. In real life, it makes you flinch and can almost be considered rude in how it imposes on you nervous system.

The range I need to cover is for 70-80Hz to 1200Hz (4 octaves). I currently using dual LE10A's per side in rebuilt Lancer boxes. I have either a NAD 2600 or Bryston 4B to drive them in my tri-amp setup. Below I am using TAD 1601a's in stereo bass boxes down to 28Hz (with electronic boost), and above I have TAD 4001's coupled to McCauley horn/lense combinations up to 12kHz where the 077's take over as super tweeters. See my avatar for my setup before I replaced the LE85's with the TAD's.

I sit about 3 to 4 m from the speakers in a room that is 4m wide and 7m long and has 3m ceilings. The speakers are toed in slightly 1m from the 4m long wall and each speaker is about 3/4m from the side walls.

I would like to find an alternative for the dual LE10A's in the mid-bass region. I am wondering how a short front horn might work in this situation. Any suggestion would be greatly appreciated.

[Robh3606]

Well an E-145/2123 combo can do a good job. You get the flinch effect. Especailly if you don't know it's coming I run mine from 50Hz on up to 1.5K with a 300Hz crossover point between the two. The "C" Urei's run the 801C drivers a modified E-145 up to around 1k+ or so. Just a thought if you don't go horn. The E-145 is a very dynamic sounding driver.

Rob

[jblnut]

The 108H in my 250Ti's really kicks ass in the snare drum region - it's one of my favorite aspects of the system. There might even be a newer/stronger replacement from the pro line which others could steer you towards.

jblnut

I'm looking for better mid-bass impact. This has been an ongoing quest for me for quite a number of years now. I wish to reproduce the crack of the snare drum. You know that sound. In real life, it makes you flinch and can almost be considered rude in how it imposes on you nervous system.

The range I need to cover is for 70-80Hz to 1200Hz (4 octaves). I currently using dual LE10A's per side in rebuilt Lancer boxes. I have either a NAD 2600 or Bryston 4B to drive them in my tri-amp setup. Below I am using TAD 1601a's in stereo bass boxes down to 28Hz (with electronic boost), and above I have TAD 4001's coupled to McCauley horn/lense combinations up to 12kHz where the 077's take over as super tweeters. See my avatar for my setup before I replaced the LE85's with the TAD's.

I sit about 3 to 4 m from the speakers in a room that is 4m wide and 7m long and has 3m ceilings. The speakers are toed in slightly 1m from the 4m long wall and each speaker is about 3/4m from the side walls.

I would like to find an alternative for the dual LE10A's in the mid-bass region. I am wondering how a short front horn might work in this situation. Any suggestion would be greatly appreciated.

[RacerXtreme]

Why mess around. Get two of these.

[mikebake]

A front loaded horn can/will give you this. The startling impact of a snare or tom, etc. is indeed a stretch, if not totally out of reach, for many a speaker. A top notch pro-based direct radiator JBL driver can deliver it, but not IMO like a JBL horn loaded system. Whatever their drawbacks, a 4560 box can deliver the bulk of the drum range wtih impact and interesting clarity that damn few other boxes can. It is one of the (possibly few) things they seem to do particularly well. BTW, where, exactly, are you located? You might like to hear this response for yourself. Other JBl systems I've heard don't come close to what the (lowly) 4560 can do with drums. It's uncanny. A local 100 piece marching band actually goes by my house to practice; I invited the drum section to listen to some pieces; they were shocked at the transients/dynamics/power for the drums. My brother is an accomplished semi-pro drummer, product of North Texas State, still plays/practices 4 nights a week, recently performed with Steely Dan guitarist Elliott Randall (Reelin' in the Years), so he has a good appreciation for drum sound; only the 4560 has delivered the power for him. As Rob mentioned, E145-2123 are powerful enough and clean enough to give the effect, but horn loading adds a dimension hard to compete with.

[mikebake]

Why mess around. Get two of these.

Well, yeah, kinda my point, really!

[John]

Mike I think he is in Detroit!!! 8MILE RD. Next to M+M

[mikebake]

Mike I think he is in Detroit!!! 8MILE RD. Next to M+M

That is what I was thinking; I can set up a really satisfying demo, but with a caveat; if you like the 4560 drum impact, they are not a "home-friendly" cabinet/size. He can also hear 4430/Performance Series/CS3115 systems for fun...............

[RacerXtreme]

No, don't live in Dee - Troit. About an hour away - near Lake St. Clair.

Is space a problem?

[Roddyama]

Mike I think he is in Detroit!!! 8MILE RD. Next to M+M

I'll have you know John, I'm north of 8mi road, in the 586.

Yes Mike, I'm in the Detroit area. I have been looking at the short front horns and wonder if they will still give me the 4 octave range I'm getting from the LE10A's now. Would I be getting the lowest octave through the port? The 4560 uses a 12" driver, correct? Is there a version that will use a 10" driver that you know of? How do voices sound using this type horn?

Sorry for the questions. Till from the diyAudio forum made a similar horn with an Altec driver with what seemed to be good success. But with him being in Germany, I'm sure I'll never get to hear them.

[mikebake]

The 4560 is a mid-bass cabinet, and is pretty far down even at 60-80hz. It uses a 15 inch and is "fully horn loaded from 200hz up" to where it usually hands off to a comp. driver at around 1200. it is not a home hi-fi device, and carries some expected anomalies, but can sound qutie good on voice, and again, the impact of kick/tympani/toms is quite good. Excursion by the woofer at high output is reduced in the horn design, so distortion isn't bad.

Dr. Edgar has designed/produced/sold mid-bass horns for quite some time, with a good result. He sells the shells for a nice 80hz horn that is often paired with a JBL 12 incher, and also sells a horn loaded mid bass unit in the Titan system which used a 12. OVer this he generally used a 2440-41 unit and then a non-JBL tweet. The Titans are paired with his down firing Seismic sub, and across the range they are quite impressive overall. I'm still a big fan of the fully horn loaded 3-4 way designs for power and control. I think you'll find you need to go to something like that if you find you keep craving the impact.

p.s. in the Titan system Edgar uses his famous saladbowl round Tractrix mid horn with the 2441.

[Earl K]

Hi Rodd,

FWIW ; the older alnico le10a(s) don't have as much "jump" factor as even the newer le10h models. The different magnets and the different coil types between the two are clearly audible ( to me at least ) . I can understand your comments about the le10a being too "polite" / though / I'm not sure I want to incorporate "rude" into my own listening experience . I do like Robs' terminology of "flinch factor" though I think I'd reserve that attribute for a HT system .


Baffle Mounting :

- Certainly baffle mounting something into a box ( sealed ) be the easiest approach to first try. That's what I would do . The minimal sawdust in this step is a good thing.

- Lancers suggestion of the 2122H ten makes a lot of sense. Given your parameters ; ( good down to 80 hz ) they will be the only JBL 10" that will have a chance at providing enough lowmid . The foam suspension is a very significant factor in allowing this 10" to operate that low . I do wonder if you are going to need 2 or 4 / considering what you presently listen to. 4 of these new is about $1000.00 . That has to be considered if this is a bit of a lark .

- 2206 & 2204 , 12" drivers are pretty common on eBay. It would be minimal financial risk to try a pair of these in boxes ( sealed is the first thing I'd try ) . Both these models have relatively high Qtc which I think is mostly caused by their stiff suspensions. I'd be inclined to loosen the suspension ( thus lowering Fs & Qtc ) and so creating a 12" version of the 2234 ( 15" ) . You'd need to do this mod. yourself with eBay foam kits ( if Rick Cobb can find some that fit ) .

-The Altec 414-8E ( ferrite magnet ) would be my first choice in 12s to try out . Unfortunately these only come up for sale on eBay less than once a year . Maybe Iconic makes a counterpart / haven't checked . If I'm not mistaken , these lighter coned , high compliance / low Fs woofers / use an underhung coil topology ( which will contribute to increased dynamics & accuracy ) . Likely worth checking out with Todd W.


Horn Loading :

See Volvotretters' Site for a good looking setup that incorporates horns into the living room .

- I think you are asking for too much range from a single horn-loaded driver . I'd email erik and ask him what he thinks .

- 140 or 150 hz is all you can expect from these sizes of horns . That limitation extends to the 4560. In the 4560, everything below the flare-cutoff ( I think @ 150 hz ) comes from the porting scheme .

- If you go the horn route, you'll be better off lowering the crossover point of your hi-mid horn.

- And while we are on the subject of change, get a pair of those large tractrix boat-horns that are just so clearly "superior" looking/sounding .

<. EarlK

[Roddyama]

Hi Earl,

If you ever sit front and center in a jazz club with an agressive drummer you'll know what I meant "rude". I don't expect to get exactly that from a set of speakers, but we're all here trying to do what we can.

I guess over the years I too have thought about or received suggestions about a number of variations. I like the idea of the short front horn but would not want to compromise the BW requirement. I have always felt it important that this band be spanned by a single driver. Particularly since my main use for these speaker are for music and HT being secondary.

Rob, I've thought about the 2123 and 12" combo. I like the idea. I would want to select the pair that would allow me to roll off the 12" response in the 300Hz range and let the 10" run the full range up to 1200Hz. All this driven by a single amp. Maybe this is the 2204 or 2206 coupled with the 2123 or 2122. with a little work I could fit them in my existing boxes. Making a separate chamber for the 10" wouldn't be too difficult.

I've also given a lot of thought to the full range guys. Im a little surprised no one has suggested this here yet. I believe it is the Lowther Opus the has a single driver front and rear horn loaded. Does anyone have any experience in this area? A couple years ago I heard the Rethm (sp?) full range speaker using, I believe, a Fostex driver. They sounded very good and the impact and dynamics were good as well.

My wife an I have separate condos so the SAF is not a factor at all. I have an end unit at the back of the complex and have run at very high levels without a complaint so I'm good to go on that count as well. I do tend to be a little on the pratical side when it comes to size though. A straight 70Hz Tractrix horn has always made me cringe no matter how much I try to talk myself into trying it.

Thanks all for your response so far.

P.S. I've drueled over the Volvotretters horns a few times

[pangea]

- Roddyama
Nowhere in this thread, can I find anything on what kind of x-over you're using.

Since your drivers are housed in different cab's I think a couple of Behringer Ultradrive, DEQ or equivalent dbx Driverack x-overs, would help improving sound quality as well as mid-bass impact, when everything is properly time aligned and in phase.
Am I right?

I'm using the 2123 in my own speakers (see avatar) and I'm VERY impressed with how the snare- and kick- drum is presented, when the recording is good, that is.
I also think the class-D amps I'm using (Hypex UCD400), are equally instrumental in that improvment.

BR
Roland

[Roddyama]

- Roddyama
Nowhere in this thread, can I find anything on what kind of x-over you're using.

Since your drivers are housed in different cab's I think a couple of Behringer Ultradrive, DEQ or equivalent dbx Driverack x-overs, would help improving sound quality as well as mid-bass impact, when everything is properly time aligned and in phase.
Am I right?

I'm using the 2123 in my own speakers (see avatar) and I'm VERY impressed with how the snare- and kick- drum is presented, when the recording is good, that is.
I also think the class-D amps I'm using (Hypex UCD400), are equally instrumental in that improvment.

BR
Roland

I'm currently using a Rane AC23 as a stand in for what will (at some point) be a customs crossover. I had a customized Heathkit xover for the low xover point. The upper xover point was a hybrid active/passive line level with a Nakamichi Black Box for the active portion. This began to malfunction a while ago so hence the Rane.

Crossovers were low LP @ 18db/oct @ 70Hz and low hp @ 6db/oct at ~90Hz. On the high xover it was 12db/oct @ 1250Hz for lp with a passive line level cap (6db/oct) hp @ 5kHz. This was to tame the lump in the response of the Radian diaphragm in the TAD 4001 driver.

I'm sure there is merit to physical time alignment and signal time alignment. I need to spend some time working on these issues. I first want to gether the right complement of drivers before I dive too deeply into that issues. Although I have not ignored it completely. The drivers and their application, I feel, will be the main factors to deal with.