Hurricane Katrina

[thoots]

For the author of this politcally charged piece of "journalism" to suggest that the aftermath of the powerful natural disaster could be prevented is complete and utter . But come on...it wasn't just a flood...there was 150+ mph winds that the flood water had nothing to do with. There's only so much mankind can do to defend against Mother Nature. Let's stop the friggin' political finger pointing and deal with the mess. How 'bout just a little support for President Bush? This guy has been dealt disaster after disaster and he hasn't collasped from the stress yet...or been checked into rehab.

Well, I'm definitely with Don, and I'm really trying pretty hard NOT to make this political -- it's just a matter of what priorities any given politician has been using while spending all of the tax money we fork over to him or her. I'm not really even trying to "lay blame," but rather, I've been trying to provide a little insight into the situation where all kinds of other folks are laying blame all over the place.

That said, back to the disaster at hand. I don't believe anyone is saying that a natural disaster could be "prevented" -- of course it can't. However, we human beings absolutely CAN make a difference in regards to the amount of damage such a disaster might cause to our lives and property. In the emergency management arena, this is something known as "mitigation." If we happen to live in an area that's largely below sea level, and we make that happen by means of building levees, well, we "mitigate" the possible effects of disasters by making sure we build VERY VERY VERY GOOD levees. Unless, of course, some politician who happens to control the money decides this isn't a very high priority, and sends all the money somewhere else. Then, maybe we only get VERY MEDIOCRE levees.

Building "below sea level" and controlling nature's waterways to fit our urban needs isn't really rare at all -- we "reclaim" land by filling in waterways all over the world, we build dams and seawalls and all kind of things to control the waterways around us. "Netherlands" usually comes to mind in regards to areas built below sea level, but, gosh, I doubt they skimp on the funding of their levee and dike maintenance and construction!

But, again, this is "mitigation," and it largely works. It's like the argument in regards to rebuilding the city below sea level again, and why should we do that. Along with the argument about how they keep on rebuilding in the earthquake-zone areas in California. Well, again, in California, they "rebuild" with ever-increasingly-demanding building codes, so new construction is built to be relatively "earthquake-proof." A good for-instance is how you usually don't see major new buildings -- skyscrapers and such -- get damaged in those earthquakes. It's mainly because these are multi-million-dollar constructions built to very demanding earthquake-survival building codes. And, a lot of techniques and technologies can help to "earthquake-proof" any given home -- bolting the home to the foundation, adding steel or other strengthing supports and such can make a big difference. Other kinds of construction also get rebuilt to better codes, such as freeway overpasses.

So, we CAN mitigate the effects of natural disasters. Also, especially in regards to "flooding," we have increasingly become aware of the effect that "paving over vast acres of land" has PLENTY to do with the severity of any flooding that might happen. It's very simple -- natural soil and especially anything resembling a "wetland" can soak up floodwaters, but concrete and pavement just doesn't allow that to happen. Again, that has been identified in the New Orleans area -- we have built over much of the wetland area around the city, doing exactly the opposite of "mitigating" the chance that flooding might happen in the city.

Regarding "politics," all I can do is point out that George W. Bush has appointed a couple of guys who have no emergency management experience whatsoever to run FEMA. And, it essentially took FEMA about five days to get any relief into the area. Plus, whoever made the decision to bury FEMA under the Office of Homeland Security put the whole thing back into "military mode," where natural disaster response became a low priority once again. Heck, I watched a CNN report today where, out of some 350 or so exercises FEMA had anything to do with over some period of time I never quite caught, only TWO had anything to do with "hurricanes" -- all of the others were all about terrorist attacks. And, apparently, even the two hurricane exercises included some terrorist attack within them.

In the end, I just come from the side of the fence that believes that government CAN make a difference in situations like these. We fork over lots of tax dollars, and we have come to expect "disaster response and relief" from our government agencies. In the case of natural disasters, I have seen how FEMA under James Lee Witt took pro-active action to get command and control centers in place before hurricanes hit our country, and took pro-active action to have relief supplies virtually "on the road" before a storm hits land. It CAN be done, if government is competent enough to decide to do it. And I sure think it helps to have an experienced emergency manager running FEMA, in order to attain such competence.

Of course, you can't do this kind of thing with all the different kinds of natural disasters -- we can't predict earthquakes worth beans, for instance. But, we've got a pretty good grip on "hurricanes" by now. Yeah, they move around a bit, but we usually have a pretty good idea of where they will hit and how strong they will be not only "hours" before they hit, but virtually "days." Good emergency managers know that THIS is the time to start acting -- it can and does save lives, and that's the number one priority for every emergency management professional.

[Audiobeer]

I cannot argue with anything you say, other than to state there was a need to prepare the levee's before Bush. I would think the Mayor, then the Govenor of Louisiana and so on should be more responsible then the President. I find it hard to belive had Kerry or Gore had been elected the Levee would not have still failed. I just cannot believe that while all this crap is going on, the same politicians on both sides take the pot shots. It's business as usual on both sides and I for one get sick of it. Hopefully if anything good comes out of the tragedy like this will pull people together.

[Titanium Dome]

I find it hard to belive had Kerry or Gore had been elected the Levee would not have still failed. I just cannot believe that while all this crap is going on, the same politicians on both sides take the pot shots. It's business as usual on both sides and I for one get sick of it. Hopefully if anything good comes out of the tragedy like this will pull people together.

Characteristically, though, these poorly implemented plans pull us apart. Some of us blindly blame the government and the president, while some of us blindly support them. Your point that it wouldn't matter who was in charge is the saddest reality of all. Is this the best we can do? Are these truly the most talented and capable leaders we can produce?

The hard truth is that we all know people who could have done a better job organizing, assigning, and executing, but they'll never be mayors or governors or presidents. Could we at least get a mayor or governor or president who could appoint people to these positions based on merit and ability? Apparently Clinton could do it at least in one instance.

Witt was clearly the most competent FEMA leader ever. Period. Did you see the poor sap in charge now? He doesn't have a clue. Why is he there? Who appointed him? Who's responsible for that? Ah, George Bush.

If you want the power and the glory you have to accept the blame and the shame. Because when the good times come you want the credit, and when the bad times come you said you could take care of business so do it. No excuses, no "I can't control nature" whining, no "it takes time to ramp up" aid, no "we have plenty of resources and we just have to mobilize them so be patient" while people suffer and die, while children are trumatized, while people predictably turn into animals trying to survive.

Geez, all the studies needed have been done, all the logistical plans needed have been drawn over centuries of military planning, all the strategies necessary for command and control have been demonstrated hundreds of times across the globe over the decades, the mystery of supply chains and food/materiel drops have been perfected, and we are the brightest and best...so

It's leadership and vision folks. Where there is no vision the people perish. Where there is no vision, only the blind have power. And you know what happens when the blind lead the blind.

He said he wanted to be president. She said she wanted to be governor. He said he wanted to be mayor. No one forced them. In an older and more accountable culture, the leader would be taken out and killed after a disaster like this. Then the next leader would do a much better job.

[Audiobeer]

[QUOTE=Titanium Dome]He said he wanted to be president. She said she wanted to be governor. He said he wanted to be mayor. No one forced them. In an older and more accountable culture, the leader would be taken out and killed after a disaster like this. Then the next leader would do a much better job.[/QUOTE

I have no argument for that.....the leadership sucks all around. I look at other parts of the affected area that things are goind so much better, is it the flood waters, leadership, or the people causing the delay on New Orleans? What is it about New Orleans that differs from the other areas. Why is everyone looking at New Orleans as the News Story. Why is there no looting elsewhere in the scope of New Orleans. Why are the people suffering more in New Orleans than anywhere else? I just can't believe that it's politics on a federal level. Why are the people in the dome being forced to stay and Red Cross not being allowed in. Who's making those decisions?

[Ian Mackenzie]

Frankly,

After reading the newpaper accounts of the horror stories of Austrailian tourists lucky to be alive after being trapped inside the super dome, everything else is background noise.

I am sure we will all pray for those caught up this tragedy that they survive the ordeal.

Ian

[louped garouv]

... above and beyond the before mentioned I would never depend on the goverment to protect my ass if I live in these areas. The ideal that All these people should be already rescued, sheltered, clothed, fed since the winds died down on Monday morning is ridiculous. The main problem was in New Orleans and everyone was breathing a sigh of relief until the levee's broke. ...... This is just a case of American's thinking it won't happen to them and not heeding the warnings. ... During 9/11 you were able to communicate and had power, lights, transportation and it was limited to a few blocks. Here the devistation goes on for blocks. I feel helpless, it is frustrating. Don't think I'll be offended if you fire back, pile on....I'm just venting too.

no reason to pile it on ole' audiobeer..... we just talking....


the number I have been hearing listening to the www.wdsu.com (local NOLA TV station broadcasting from FL right now, w/ live webcasting) has been the 90,000 square miles of devestation --- that is the biggest issue, the shear magnitude of the destruction; and the related issue of loss of power and utilities...

I don't think it can all be attributed to local new orleanians merely not heeding the warnings, much of it can be attributed to the lack of evacuation, it was a mandatory evacuation after all, but to just write it off as ignoring the warnings is to not look at the true circumstances faced by the ppl of NOLA -- I have heard the story of at least three survivors that said they just could not afford to leave -- the storm hit b4 payday afterall, and their meager savings had been dwindled down to nothing the last time they evacuated (from George IIRC -- one of the interviewees stated that she had spent $1200 the last evacuation and just did not have the funding to be able to do that again on such stort notice)

as far as not depending on the govt to take care of them, I personally know a bunch of folks out that way that have done as well as can be expected during this last storm, and it is undoubtedly due to their preparations.... fresh water, food, batteries, radios, emergency phones, pirogues, flatboats,sidearms/ammo, etc -- alot of the ppl you have seen on the news just have no way of stockpiling the necessary survival kits in their publically provided tenemants, or their little homes that they have been able to provide for themselves; just a fact of life down there....


good cajuns are prepared for almost anything, I hope a pray for the saftey of the folks in Louisiana, Miss, and AL -- especially the folks out in the still flooded areas and what used to be the outlying coastal areas of LA, IE: Grand Isle, Venice, Buras -- I hear that their hometowns have not fared so well....

[paragon]

Wir gedenken der Toten im Raum Missisipi Delta die dieser Hurrican verursacht hat. Die Versorgung der Überlebenden ist inakzeptabel !!

Sorry, Eckhard

[John]

From what I remember Clinton did not start the downsizing of the U.S. Forces, it started under Reagon and then continued under Bush and then Clinton. By the way "W" has had 5 years to fix things!!! Is there anyone out there that could name one thing that "W" has fixed in the last 5 years??? Really what has the guy done at all.

[Mr. Widget]

Is there anyone out there that could name one thing that "W" has fixed in the last 5 years???

I can name one thing. He has really "fixed" us!

Please take this as an attempt at humor and not a political slam or endorsement of any kind.

As for the aftermath of Katrina, there is plenty of blame all around. It does focus at the top, but that is the nature of being at the top. As pointed out by several members, it isn't like an earthquake that strikes with absolutely no warning (at least with our current technology) however like an earthquake striking San Francisco, a class 4-5 Hurricane hitting New Orleans was never going to be a surprise... we've had a very, very long time to plan.

I am now just that much less confident in our response for the big one that will hit San Francisco. We do have an outstanding fire department, but who has their backs? With our current type of respond after the fact mentality, I expect that we will see what resources that might have been available to us will be diverted to the South East leaving us even more vulnerable... The quote will be, "No one thought that San Francisco would burn like that after a massive earthquake. We couldn't possibly have known. We've all been humbled by the awesome powers of Mother Nature."

Widget

[Titanium Dome]

He's spent nearly 27% of his terms so far on vacation. That's his #1 achivement. Now admittedly, this is information I got from another source, and I didn't count the days myself, and he might have worked parts of some of those days.

http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20031001.html

If I had that kind of deal, I'd get 14.4 weeks of vacation a year, but I only get three, and I have to work during my vacation sometimes, too.

Now some folks somewhere will say that the unfortunate residents of New Orleans will be on permanent vacation at government expense for untold months, but that's obviously not the same thing. Sadly, when you have nothing to go back to, being away from home is not a vacation, no matter who pays for it.

Just once I'd like to see a president who not only said he cared but actually proved it again and again with actions. Well, there was Jimmy Carter (who created FEMA, BTW). You don't have to like him or his politics to be able to see that he put his back into it, building houses, feeding the poor, relieving refugees, etc. He didn't go on the perpetual pocket-lining parade of pompous dinners that other presidents have undertaken.

He'll be in New Orleans for more than a flyover and a photo op.

http://www.habitat.org/newsroom/2005...doc010602.aspx

[Ian Mackenzie]

Gee,

You guys are still talking blame.

I think you need to look at what the rest of the world thinks of "America".

It's an attitude problem...

America's shame...are the headlines and the pictures back this up.....

How could this happen to the richest nation on Earth?

Bush calls on his father and former president Clinton for help because he can't handle it. If he is the manager of a business then the business is " seriously scewed up" and the recources that were needed to deal with this unfortunate event have been spent on an all but failed attempt at telling someone else how to run their business..

We get plenty of these storm too....Darwin was flattened totally and it is literally 1000's of kms from the nearest major city....there was none of this crap. They went in the next morning, established leadership and did what had to be done.

No this is not a political slap in the face, its just that the rest of the world has to deal with disasters all the time but shame isn't the outcome.

[louped garouv]

We get plenty of these storm too....Darwin was flattened totally and it is literally 1000's of kms from the nearest major city....there was none of this crap. They went in the next morning, established leadership and did what had to be done.

No this is not a political slap in the face, its just that the rest of the world has to deal with disasters all the time but shame isn't the outcome.

the levees (really the floodwalls) breaking the next morning in NOLA really created havoc -- the calls over the radios at that time were desperate... had rescue personnel been on the scene at the time, they would have needed saving too....

true establishing leadership took entirely too long, but I think that the armed (bad) ppl in NOLA really are the ones who established themselves as leaders, and unfortunately they started raping and pillaging which did not exactly encourage rescue volunteers to help with the life saving portion of the recovery plan -- they were trying to stay safe themselves...

I seem to remember the US helping in most foreign disasters, not sure about the one in question, bu tI think the U Shelp in most.....

I just hope and pray that thr body count does not reach the 10K mark in NOLA... Nagin said that the number of NOLA citizens unaccounted for tops 50K, I just hope that 10% don't end up being dead.... but deep inside, I know that they will be pulling corpses for a long time......

like I said b4, I am really torn up over this.....

[Lancer]

No this is not a political slap in the face, its just that the rest of the world has to deal with disasters all the time but shame isn't the outcome.

America is really huge on "accountability" and "taking ownership" right now. Bush is accountable and he needs to take ownership of the fact that he is a failure as a president. Instead of blowing 80 billion in Iraq he should have put all the cash into our now ancient infrastructure. All across America we are working with legacy infrastructure and pretty soon it will get to the point where things simply start to fail wholesale. He just doesn't have a good picture of things. Moreover, is appears he doesn't want to have a good picture of anything beyond his own personal adgenda. People can understand natural disasters just fine. What people can't understand is when impending doom is spelled out before them and their leaders fail to act on that information. Hurricanes happen, no one can be blamed for that. Bush and the leadership in this country are accountable for New Orleans. It's really pretty simple. They gambled and they lost.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...itics-national

There is soooo much that has to be done in the United States to bring it into the new century. Everywhere you go towns and cities need money pumped into them. Instead we spend our money overseas...

[louped garouv]

America is really huge on "accountability" and "taking ownership" right now. Bush is accountable and he needs to take ownership... People can understand natural disasters just fine. What people can't understand is when impending doom is spelled out before them and their leaders fail to act on that information.


Everywhere you go towns and cities need money pumped into them. Instead we spend our money overseas...

the problem in NOLA long predates Bush... had NOLA been given a billion dollars thirty years ago; then they could have had a levee system that could have stood up to a Hurricane class 4/5 --

currently, the funding bills to update the levees have been stalled in congress for several years now, but even had they been passed a decade ago, the work would have still been going on...

too big an issue to put on the one guy, ya know? I would suspect that even if NOLA had been fully funded to construct a modern system, some local politians would get rich and the system would be 1/2 ass......

[Lancer]

the problem in NOLA long predates Bush...

Completely irrelevant... it happened on "his watch". That's another current favorite buzzword in this country.