275nd / S3100 compatibility

[Mr. Widget]

Well, I do have to put my 2 cents worth in.. unfortunaltely, since I do not think that either of you have heard a factory built setup I don't know how you can say anything difinitive about the 3100/2600 finished product.. The reason I say this is having owned Quad 57's, which by most peoples definition are much better than average at stereophonic imaging, I can difinitively say that the S/3100 throws are very, very convincing soundstage. Every bit as good as the 57's and in most ways better.
Come and listen any time.

Bernard

Bernard,

I'd love to... no plans for heading north just yet though. I do think you bring up a good point about the S3100 as a system. I have never had the pleasure of hearing them. I would love to have the opportunity. I think it would be very interesting.

As for the Quads, I have heard them and I like them. I wasn't particularly impressed with their imaging though. For imaging I generally like two way mini-monitors... yep Zilch, two ways! For them to work they typically need a 5-6" woofer so that it performs well up to the tweeter which typically needs to be crossed over around 2.5KHz.

Back on the topic of this thread (however loosely) I did hear the horn from the S3100s imaging... it just wasn't what I consider convincing. Now I'll be the first to admit that the speakers whose imaging I really like have very poor dynamics and can sound really strained at realistic SPLs... there are several "audiophile" speakers that I have heard that do a great job imaging and are dynamic, but they typically cost more than my car.


Widget

[Ian Mackenzie]

No too rooms are alike either.

At any rate as G.T stated in another thread it comes down to what you like Bernard, screw everyone else. .

[Mr. Widget]

At any rate as G.T stated in another thread it comes down to what you like Bernard, screw everyone else. .

Absolutely! That's what was implied by this statement:

I am sure there are plenty of folks who are happy with them, but I'd rank them as someone's personal fav as opposed to a universal success story.

I started the whole counterpoint simply so that someone reading about a particular "amazing" horn doesn't blindly run out and buy a pair expecting the ultimate high end only to discover that they don't share the enthusiasm.


Widget

[Zilch]

Absolutely! That's what was implied by this statement:I started the whole counterpoint simply so that someone reading about a particular "amazing" horn doesn't blindly run out and buy a pair expecting the ultimate high end only to discover that they don't share the enthusiasm.

It's pretty tough to buy them anymore, alas.

Where I'm coming from is I'm hooked on the asymmetric controlled directivity image effect, and thus investigating how it works and what's required to accomplish it. I do have some horns from another manufacturer, and easily see from measurements that they haven't anywhere near the control precision of these JBL's. I'll also measure the Everest horns for comparison.

I think it's regrettable that JBL never made this technology generally available and that they abandoned it after S2600/S3100. It moved phantom center a major step forward, largely unnoticed and under-appreciated.

Next time Mr. Widget gets by here, we'll have another listen. Since he last heard them, and largely in response to what we heard in that session, I've moved the filter frequency up from 800 Hz to 1200 Hz, and also retuned the LE14H-3 boxes they're mated with. We've all agreed the horns need to be installed in cabinets for optimal performance, as Bernard suggests. That may permit lowering the crossover back down to where JBL ran them....

[Bernard Wolf]

[
Sorry : Actually, that's not really the case ( though a new plug & play may be close enough for R & R ).

Still :
- The LCR notches will still need to be tweaked to properly zone in on the peaks produced by your specific 2426 drivers. Additionally, because the DCR values of the coils in the mkII are unknown, the notches are likely going to end up deeper ( from a custom Solen build ) than they ought to be ( unless you transport a speaker over to Solen so that they measure the results as they go along ).
- Also, my own preference would be to redesign the padding network to simplify it, to make it conform with what I perceive to be , more typical Northridge network design practices ( I'm a liitle uncertain if this network is GTs' handiwork or someone elses / it looks to be someone elses through my wandering eyes ).
- Also, this mkII network may benifit from having a LCR impedance correction network added to it ( as is found in the original N3100 ). This means someone needs to build the mkII network / measure it's overall impedance with drivers in place / then decide if the LCR impedance correction is applicable .

[/quote]

Very scary Earl... sorry to take so long getting back on this. Anyways, I have decided to leave well enough alone for the present as I am not really interested in experimenting right now. Besides which the 3100 sounds fabulous as is. I will just bide my time untill that second 275nd shows up. In the meantime, if you want to come over and take a listen while you are in Montreal that would be great. I have never heard any other JBL speakers and would be curious as to what your take on these would be.

PM me if you want to stop by and I will give you my coordinates.

Bernard

[Bernard Wolf]

Still :
- The LCR notches will still need to be tweaked to properly zone in on the peaks produced by your specific 2426 drivers. Additionally, because the DCR values of the coils in the mkII are unknown, the notches are likely going to end up deeper ( from a custom Solen build ) than they ought to be ( unless you transport a speaker over to Solen so that they measure the results as they go along ).
- Also, my own preference would be to redesign the padding network to simplify it, to make it conform with what I perceive to be , more typical Northridge network design practices ( I'm a liitle uncertain if this network is GTs' handiwork or someone elses / it looks to be someone elses through my wandering eyes ).
- Also, this mkII network may benifit from having a LCR impedance correction network added to it ( as is found in the original N3100 ). This means someone needs to build the mkII network / measure it's overall impedance with drivers in place / then decide if the LCR impedance correction is applicable .

Sorry to take so long responding to this post.. been rather busy...

The notion of doing all of the above is way beyond my needs/interests at this point in time... kind of scarry too ! Actually, I am more than thrilled with the 3100 as it is and so I will just sit tight and wait untill that day in the not too distant future - hopefully - when I do find that second 275.

In the meantime Earl, if you are in the area and would like to hear the 3100's please drop me a PM and we will work it out.

Thaanks - Bernard

[MatthiasA]

hello

i bought 2 H2600 for my two DIY S2600's
brand new from Harman Germany
but ive no idea where i can buy the adapter?
is there any part available in the USA?

Greetings Matthias

[Guido]

And they don't have the Adapter available?

[Jan Daugaard]

What does http://www.rw-soundsystem.de/ say who sold the H2600 horns to you?

[Zilch]

The last throats I got came from Harman France. I'd be surprised if there were any in the USA, as it was Hell getting my last pair in December, 2005.

It's confusing. Since it's not shown on the drawing, a resonable buyer would assume it comes with the horn.

But, no. The part number is:

318793-001 Horn Throat S3100

Let us know if they have any.

[MatthiasA]

how much are the throats ?

i paid about 220 euros for one horn

i dont know that throats have another number...
yes you are right - theres no number of throats in the drawing
i thought it comes with the horn
for that price....

greetings matthias

[Zilch]

i thought it comes with the horn
for that price....

Yes, I did too, and it looks in the parts listing system like it is supposed to come with, but nobody knows or cares about that, since there is also a referenced part number for the throat sold separately.

My first pair of those horns, I was able to make enough of a fuss about them being useless without throats to get them (the throats) for free. Second pair I had to pay $98 apiece for the throats, so the total is close to $600 list for a pair of the horns complete.

I've posted pics of the disassembled throat in these forums. It's smoothly contoured inside to make the transition, and a simple fabrication from plywood, for example, as I originally contemplated, won't suffice. However, they are two-piece and could easily be replicated, if necessary.

I'm surprised you got horns, actually. I've been told several times there are simply no more and none contemplated for production. A big hurdle with US Harman Parts is that those products (S2600 and S3100) were never sold in this country....

[MatthiasA]

Hello

RW Soundsystem answerd my Email.
Mr Kallis from RW said the Throat is out of stock in Europe at the moment
but he would send me an Email as soon as possible
if the adapter is available

.... happend...

offer anybody of you one or two Adapters for me?

greetings Matthias

[Zilch]

Ask Guido to contact Harman Parts directly, Harman France, in particular.

He's pretty resourceful in obtaining JBL stuff....

[Mr. Widget]

Please check every possible option first, but if they prove to be no longer available, I could borrow one of Zilch's and cast some in a sonoglass like material I use.

I assume Zilch would help out in this...


Widget