How should a speaker measure on axis??

[Robh3606]

I was reading some posts at AA and was directed to a review at Stereophile of the new Wilson Audio speakers. The price is about 45K for the pair. I thought the measurements section had some interesting comments. I then took a look at the new B+W speaker and the Tetra as well. What do you guys think?? I am going to reserve my comments for now.

Rob



http://www.stereophile.com/loudspeak...on/index4.html



http://www.stereophile.com/loudspeak...bw/index3.html



http://www.stereophile.com/loudspeak...ra/index3.html

[Don C]

Maybe we should repost that article by Floyd Toole here. The gist: Flatter response sounds better.

[Zilch]

None of those would make it past the garage testing laboratory here, I don't believe.

WHEW! I'm glad I stick with two-ways.

[Loved the "Honk" part....]

[Mr. Widget]

Rob, Zilch, you should read this document.

http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/Loudspeakers&RoomsPt2.pdf

Anyone really interested in this stuff should read all of these white papers... there is an incredible wealth of information. The published talks by Floyd Toole are particularly interesting. They really explain a lot of the stuff that I have been slowly becoming aware of over the years through my trial and error audio exploration.

http://www.harman.com/wp/index.jsp?articleId=default

There is a hell of a lot to digest here, but it really clears up a lot of the misconceptions that are promoted by the audio community.

Widget

[Mr. Widget]

Maybe we should repost that article by Floyd Toole here. The gist: Flatter response sounds better.

http://www.reed-electronics.com/tmwo.../CA475937.html

It is interesting but doesn't really have the necessary detail... read the "white papers" they really tell the story.

Widget

...on reflection, I suppose this article does tell enough of the story for speaker buyers... but coming from the perspective of a speaker builder, I was really thankful that Dr. Toole and Harman were willing to take the time to share so much in their white papers.

[boputnam]

A friend was recently thrilled with getting a pair of the ProAc Response D80 (http://www.proac-loudspeakers.com/d80.php). OK, they're ugly, sure, but what do they sound like?

"Frequency Response
20hz to 30Khz"

Really? But is that at +/-3dB...??? I'd bet +/-12dB, or worse (20Hz, my butt!). ProAc no-where specifies the dB envelope for any of their products.

A prior pair of the ProAc "Future Point Five" never impressed me - they had no bass reponse at all, and using my SmaartLIVE the crossover point was a whopping notch (about -10dB) at exactly 700Hz. I tired to talk to their technical support about this, but only got: I sensed they were not accustomed to direct questions about their engineering - "you mean, you actually measured something...?" Many audiophiles don't believe in EQ, so the notch just lived there, in this otherwise great listening room powered by monster Krells.

Anyway, as Lancer sez, "I sure got the JBL's I want", and properly set-up they far surpass anything else out there.

[boputnam]

Rob, Zilch, you should read this document.

http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/Loudspeakers&RoomsPt2.pdf

Don't forget Part 1!!

http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/Loudspeakers&RoomsPt1.pdf

[Robh3606]

Hey Widget

I have them saved and use them as references. You are right there is a wealth of information there. I like the JBL Tech Notes too. Lots of good information and good references in the back. The Revel sight used to have a couple of good papers up too. Don't know if it's still there or not. Having said that it's clear what camp I am in. I will take flat on axis with uniform power response. I am always surprised when I see a SOTA design that seems to ignore this. I quess design philosphy has it's place but it's always a surprise when it seems to conflict with good engineering practice.

Rob

[DavidF]

Hey Widget

...I will take flat on axis with uniform power response. ...
Rob

Agreed, since I need to use toe-in and and close-to-side-wall positioning in my little space. But much easier said than done. Very difficult with some crossover slopes, especially with a two-way design. Always have to know where the correct axis points, as well, to establish a reference going off axis.

David F

[JBLnsince1959]

About what!?
I've got the JBL's I want, don't you?

that's the first time I've heard anyone say they have all the jbl speakers they want

surely there must be something JBL you want and don't have...

[Mr. Widget]

...and properly set-up they far surpass anything else out there.

Now really? Anything/everything???


Widget

[boputnam]

Now really? Anything/everything???
Widget

And I am one with expensive tastes, boy-howdy...

[edgewound]

The human ear is a remarkable device...and can be a very failing device. You can set up a number of different "flat" measuring speaker systems that all have great engineering and construction practices incorporated into them....yet they will all sound different to the ear...and everyone else's. Because all of our respective ears have been "calibrated" differently. All the sophisticated measurement tools lack one characteristic...subjective listening tastes. That's why there are so many speakers on the market. I think the white papers all have some great scientific info to absorb....but the bottom line is...at the end of the day the white paper is used as a sales tool (Toole?) to sell more loudspeakers. What do your ears say?

[Robh3606]

"All the sophisticated measurement tools lack one characteristic...subjective listening tastes. That's why there are so many speakers on the market. I think the white papers all have some great scientific info to absorb....but the bottom line is...at the end of the day the white paper is used as a sales tool (Toole?) to sell more loudspeakers. What do your ears say?"

Hey Edgewound

How true think how boring things would be if it all sounded the same. Of course they are a sales tool however what I like about the Harman stuff is all the peer reviewed references that their stuff is based on. In many ways it set's what they do apart from the rest. I still think JBL is leading the way in many respects and to see many of the authors of those papers as employees both present and former is impressive to say the least. As far as what my ears say well I would be preaching to the choir around here.

Rob

[Mr. Widget]

...what I like about the Harman stuff is all the peer reviewed references that their stuff is based on. In many ways it set's what they do apart from the rest. I still think JBL is leading the way in many respects and to see many of the authors of those papers as employees both present and former is impressive to say the least.

I agree... and I agree with Mr. Edge's "calibrated" comments... after all, Bo found his perfectly "calibrated" speakers...

I really would like to know exactly what the "random musical selections" are that Harman uses for their shuffle comparisons and they make a point that they get the most consistent results while using ears that they have trained. I wonder just how biasing that "training" might be.

It seems that if the results of Harman's exercises were complete and accurate... according the the "sales toole", JBL and Harman speakers would be the run away best sellers. I think the tests are very good but even Dr. Toole admits they do have a ways to go yet. I do think that they are on the right track, but perhaps are still not asking all the right questions.

Widget