The UltraCurve has an alternate bypass. You turn it off, and a deenergized relay apparently shorts inputs and outputs together.Originally Posted by Mike Caldwell
Pretty easy to assess it's "contribution" using this function.
The UltraCurve has an alternate bypass. You turn it off, and a deenergized relay apparently shorts inputs and outputs together.
Pretty easy to assess it's "contribution" using this function.
As I recall the unit's sound improves once that bypass is selected too!The UltraCurve has an alternate bypass. You turn it off, and a deenergized relay apparently shorts inputs and outputs together.
Pretty easy to assess it's "contribution" using this function.
Widget
YO, Widget!
What's your take on L/R equalization with both speakers playing concurrently?
[I recall you having a definite opinion on this....
Nothing special.YO, Widget!
What's your take on L/R equalization with both speakers playing concurrently?
[I recall you having a definite opinion on this....
I agree with the textbook rules. You must do each channel independently. The interchannel cancellations and room mode peaks will make any measurements taken with both channels running simultaneously virtually meaningless.
Widget
A friend has taken a digital Behringer crossover and replaced the inexpensive DACs and removed all of it's analog circuitry and has made it quite listenable. I'll try to get a list of the mods and post them. His cash outlay was not extreme and the results are comparable with my considerably more expensive DEQX... it doesn't have all of the DEQX's features, but it is an affordable way to get most of the way there.
Widget
while eq can do wonders, i really feel this is step two, because you are breaking rule #3 in audio. "correct physical problems physically; correct electronic problems electronically. this is one of the first things they teach you when you study sound engineering.
you have a large room, why not treat it. room treatment does not mean dead; a dead room sounds DEAD. portable baffels which you can move around can offer flexability and really open up your eyes (or ears) to what is going on, as well as ad some esthetics if done right. a few well placed angles can also make an important difference. i suppose i'm biased towards studio acoustics, but i think they are the ultimate listening environment and a cool "studio like" room also has a high WAF. it sounds to me like you have a live ceiling or floor or both, coupled with low height. height is the achellies heel of a good sounding room and the only thing you can do about it with limited success is to have a small amount of dampening on the ceiling (and or floor) to counteract the first reflection. btw, this will only work for HF content. although you say this is not a good option, if you have room to spare, i would build it out with an angled wall at the correct acoustical position and flush mount the speakers. this is a huge pay off which other forum members tend to ignore...but then again i am very biased in this direction.
p.s. i agree with the general negative reviews about behringer, but how well does the RTA section work and what do they cost. i only want an RTA and would never leave it in the chain, especially as an equalizer. i use third octave klarke teknic's, with 24db brooke siren cross overs.
btw, is that your desk?
bo
"Indeed, not!!"
Thanks for all your suggestions. Despite moving the 4333 all over the room, it doesn't appear I can get rid of that nasty peak (its always between 10kHz and 16kHz). Thank god I had put wheels on those cab extensions I built.
Akira, I'll take your suggestions on room treatment and start looking into diy solutions. BTW, the ceiling is not too low (8.5"), drywalled ceiling and carpeted floor. Just curious, how big do you think a baffle would need to be if one was to flush mount the speakers to a "fake wall"? Have you've ever seen the Klipsch Cornerhorns that came with its own fake corners?
I see that you are also in Toronto. They sell them at a few places in town for $460CAD, not including the mic. I ran across an used one for $320CAD with the mic. Since this is my first time using a RTA, can't really give you a good answer on how well it works. But I did some research on the net and the unit seems to be very well received.
My experience so far has been that equalization can improve a system's sound quite a lot, but with limitations. The problems that can be dealt with are errors in the frequency response of the speaker systems used, and probably variations in the directivity of the various drivers in the near to mid field. Ken Pachkowsky has EQed his Westlake monitors with 1/3rd octave measurements and corresponding corrections with 1/3rd octave equalizers. He was nice enough to switch the EQs in and out for me, and the sound was dramatically better with the correction.
Some rooms with live acoustics tend to recycle and build up midrange energy, and EQ attenuation can tame this. I would prefer to tame it with room treatment as a better option.
The worst problems that our relatively small listening rooms with their parallel walls create are standing waves at low frequencies. This can create peaks and dips of 20dB or more at our listening chairs. EQ does little to help; if you are sitting in a 20dB hole at 100Hz., boosting that frequency will pile up energy where it was already exaggerated, muddying up the overall sound, but it won't help at the positions of standing wave cancellation.
In the case of a sharp peak of high frequency, I would check the response of the h.f. driver very close up first, with the mic an inch from a cone driver, or at the mouth of a horn. If it shows up there, the driver or horn is at fault. If not, I would attempt to treat any nearby reflective surfaces such as baffle surfaces, edges, or nearby walls. If a reflection recombines in phase at the listening position, it will create a peak at that frequency.
yeh, that's my console, now wrapped up in plastic in my basement. while shania twain still records in a 20mil. room, everyone else records on their mac! thus, a lot of great studio monitors for sale...the mid sized installation has gone the way of the dinosaur.
you have really got everyone stumped on this one...i've never heard of a peak so intense at that range 16K! it almost sounds like you have an open circuit on the top end, but you say you have reversed the boxes????
to build your wall out, you would loose the depth of your boxes, or slightly less since the wall is angled slightly. the speaker would sit 1" to 2"s proud of the wall. the advantage is it would also be positioned at the right height and slightly tilted angle. (also good for HF reflection) to me this should be a solveable problem...you have a lot to work with and your ceiling height is not bad, but drywall on the top is definitely a problem.
p.s. since your in T.O. also, i'd be happy to come look at your room. i'm kind of jelous of the C.A. crowd who can just jump in the car and audition other forum member's rigs.
Yeah, it's nice. Good weather too! We think of you guys out there surrounded by Zenith Allegro's and walking through snow. If you get out this way, let us know.
David
Ah...found the problem...
Forgot to mention that I also had a TDM active 2-way crossover that I picked up on the cheap and was in the chain (HF to 4333, LF to sub1500). I had swapped speakers and amps to eliminate hardware problem, but for some stupid reason, it didn't occur to me to check the active crossover.
Anyway, tonight I removed active crossover (and the sub1500) and that peak at 16khz is gone! Now I know why I got that TDM crossover so cheap
As you can see, the responses are still far from flat but its not ugly (well, not that ugly...)
Pics below are left channel, then right.
Oops..left channel again:
Hello
I use many of the TDM crossovers in my live sound production systems both the 2-way models 24CX2 and the 3-way models 24CX3, they also make a 2-way 4 channel model the 24CX4. All of the later TDM crossovers have a switch for each channel called "CD boost / CD EQ" that is not for if your using the crossovers and playing music from CD's compact disc through them. CD in this case means constant directivity for use with constant directivity high frequency horns such as the JBL 2380, 2385 and others. All constant directivity "CD" horns require a high frequency boost applied for the horn to operate and sound like it was designed to. This pre EQ is normally applied at the crossover analog or digital. You can get more info on the TDM crossover at http://www.tdmaudio.com TDM's were and still are considered considered to be at the same quality of the BSS analog crossovers, the BSS's do have a fancier looking front panel audio quality is the same in my opinion. New TDM's are not cheap but with many systems going to DSP good used deals can be found. Below is a graph from the TDM website shown the frequency response with the CD EQ applied to a high frequency output. I would check the switches on the back of the crossover they are the recessed type that you will need a small screwdriver a to push the switch, pushed in the EQ is on and in the out position it is off. In between the two channels is a switch the converts the crossover to a 3-way mono unit. If you have an older TDM unit I think the switches are located inside in the form of a jumper link. All of mine are the newer style. If the CD EQ switches are not the problem double check how you are going from the balenced XLR outputs to what I am assuming is a unbalanced RCA type of input. (Let me know the type of amps you are using) One last thought...TDM crossovers can be fitted with a wide range of optional cards for limiting, time alignment delay and parametric output EQ maybe yours has an option card installed. My guess is the CD EQ switch.
Mike Caldwell
I like the way TDM spelled directivity ...and I thought my spelling was really bad!
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