Capacitors...

[Earl K]

Hi Ian

Well I'm sorely tempted at some time to purchase any product that someone feels is their "best timbral balance" sort thing. The reason ? It's always nice to know what others are thinking. The specials at North Creek are very tempting. I suppose if I don't like them - I might be able to sell them. I'm going to mull this over for about a week or so .

Recently I've created many pleasing mixes of dielectrics. I'm starting a spread-sheet for these recipes. Actually, most of them roughly follow the aforementioned "Cascade" approach. To further explore the classical bypass approach I need to get my hands on more large value Mylars. I already own a ton of these but I need some from a different manufacturer. Mine are certainly not generous to the lower octaves. Adding more capacitance doesn't change this characteristic at all. Reminiscent of the Zen 100 chit-chat at the North Creek site - my Mylars have quite a distinct midrange focus ( but unfortunately lack warmth ) . My Mylars are rated as 75 volts AC.

Something I'll say positive about oil based caps is that the ones I've heard/own are generous ( maybe to a fault ) into their lower ranges - as such they maintain any warmth that existed in the original signal . Additional spectral suppression filtering whilst using them as a "backbone" value will alter a timbral balance - nudging a sound towards this warmer nuance. Too much and they "mush out" as opposed to "fog out" as with the polystyrenes . My Mallory MPP in oil type caps actually "accept" Solens quite well. The Solens can be used for a bit of buttressing in the presence area that they so "overachieve" in . The oil based MPP are a bit soft in this area - though that compliments some titanium diaphragms nicely .

<. Earl K

[Ian Mackenzie]

Earl,

Tell me a bit about your system, the front end amplification & power amps, and how it has evolved in recent times?

I refer to this as I have found (IMHO) over the last 18 months that any capacitor acts as a filter of the signal, and the effect of the filtering is appears to be more obvious when the ear is perceptive of odd order harmonic distortions particularly the 3rd, 5th 7 th 9th etc.

Some refer to this a sonic glare, and my theory is that the capacitor tends to chew this over causing a shift in the spectral balance, i.e. the harmonics become spread unevenly, hence some prefer (OCL) direct capacitor-less signal paths (but they can sound raw and dry)

However, the presence of even order harmonics is often pleasing and can add a favourable tonality to the sound. The inherent sound is smooth and warm, and the impact of the capacitor (filter) is more one of balance, transparency and resolving power.

I have found that with the purest signal possible and a hint of even harmonics the apparent effect of the capacitors if they are half way decent,( i.e. black Gates, Nichicon Muse, Elna Silmics AEON, Holvands) is to add less colour or cloudiness to the sound and let more information and nuance through so the whole business is a sense of engagement rather than angst.

With glare or dirt in the sound it was like pulling tiny sharp fish bones out of your mouth and then shallowing 1/2 a loaf of bread to play it safe. The problem for so many of us is to know when do we actually have a pure signal....I Mean Hello Man.

IMHO simplicity and excellence of execution seems to work well when it comes to purity, and I attach the schematic which is the conceptual basis of my amplification for your interest. There are only two stages and this topology (c Nelson Pass & G Rollins) is referred to balanced single ended amplification.

Most of us have heard the phrase SE "single ended amplification", this is a variation that uses dual SE amps to drive both the positive and negative sides of the signal path. They are both made to operate in a matched identical manner (super symmetry) with a small amount of feedback. The effect of feeding an active positive and negative signal to the output (X) is total cancellation of inherent distortions. The result is a very pure and dynamic signal.

All this does not mean to say the amps we are all using are not pure or totally pure, its just puts a different slant on the so called Blameless Capacitor we all have in the signal path at the speakers. Are they to blame?........just ask your amps and source.

Ian

[Earl K]

Hi Ian

I had wanted to limit my participaton in this thread to the creative use & application of capacitors ( in all their different types ) . I'm pretty sure that I'm on record somewhere in the forum as agreeing that class A biasing of an electronic circuit will offer a purer sound to the end user.

Having said that; I'm in the business of getting paid to massage sound signals , ultimately for the consumption and audition of others. So because my living is dependant on the audio for video market, I confine most of my listening to circuits that I feel are representative of this ilk. That drives my choice of the Mackie 1202 mixer as a preamp. It's circuit is ubiquitous to my business, whether I like it or not. This circuit type represents about 65% of my listening time. And it requires a particular approach for capacitance filtering . This is also a portion of the playback chain that has wowed certain friends/peers of mine who own a lot of class A products ( within their personal touring racks ).

The second circuit that I listen to; is with the 1202 bypassed - with my Denon CD player directly feeding my first generation Behringer 2way cross-over ( again chosen for the ubiquitous nature of its' circuitry ). This more direct approach again has specific filtering needs. This circuit is faster ( as you can imagine ) and really underscores that fact that my present ratio of metal to paper is way out of whack. For this quasi 2way MTM system to seem at least halfway voiced - capacitors that slow down certain octaves are required. This exaggerated ratio ( metal to paper ) is in place for a purpose- simply put it - it helps when listening to a capacitors' specific sonic signature. But honestly, it is a voicing thats' near impossible to really make work ( though removing a lot of Polypropylene from the filtering combination helps ). The le14 sounds like a real loafer when mated with a 2441 sitting directly on top of it. The faster 1400nd mated to the 435be seems to be JBLs' choice of sonic marriages. I'm on record in other threads as stating that the 3" diaphragm is a better fit - from a voicing point of view. I use an Altec 288 when I get fatigued of all this horse play.

I appreciate your advocacy of the class "A" bias ( its' the same sort of advocacy that has led to my huge collection of aquaplased le10s & le14s ) - but at this time that circuit migration doesn't serve my purposes.

And so, now it's back to massaging sound .

regards <> Earl K

[Ian Mackenzie]

Earl,

Very interesting, love to hear an MP3 file of your recent works.

Have an old article from Audio Amateur soemwhere by guy who actually designed a Class A mixer from scratch for recordings in a Greek Ampitheatre.

He reseached the market and found the original discrete Jensen opamp one of the best and also the All Fet Borbley line buffers.

I'm sure the Mackie serves you well.

regards

Ian

[scott fitlin]

Earl, have you ever used any Black gate or Elna cerafine electrolytics? If so, what are your opinions on these? I would really like your take on these if you have any info to share! Thanks!

[Earl K]

Hi Scott

Sorry, I have no experience with listening to electrolytics . Are the 2 that you mentioned supposed to be good sounding ?

My only opinion is just a regurgitation of opinon from others who say that all electrolytics display significant amounts of hystersis compared to the plastic film types. I can't back that up that with any personal sonic impressions.

FWIW; here's an interesting web page about the sound of capacitors . My opinion of this displayed info is mixed. I see it showing comparitive linearity of the dielectric types ( or a visual display of the presence or lack of crossover distortion ) but I don't see what I would call some of the other contributing factors to the sound of a capacitor - such as it's speed of response vs its' frequency spectrum . Still it's very valuable info .

I've been thinking of buying some caps that are supposed to sound horrible ( such as ceramics ) - just to create a reference . I now have a huge collection of different poly sorts plus some oil based types. These should ( I think ) well represent the different genres. I prefer to listen to these "no-name" types , because a certain dielectrics' sonic signature should reveal itself - if there's anything to the topic. ( Which there is - IMHO )

regards <. Earl K

[scott fitlin]

yes Blackgates are supposed to do wonders for the audio! Even just replacing power supply caps with Blackgates is supposed to be astounding! Supposedly, because of the fine graphite particles and construction of these caps they are supoposed to NOT posses the evils that plague ordinary electrolytics!

I was thinking of experimenting, but they are expensive, and I am unsure of how they will actually perform! I have heard both good and bad about them.

Elna cerfine is the same basic principle as Blackgate but they use a fine ceramic particle instead of graphite.

I just thought you, being the cap guru, might have had some info on them!

Thanks!

[Earl K]

Hi Scott

I just thought you, being the cap guru, might have had some info on them!

Thanks but you're confusing me with someone else . Really this is all at the instigation of Robert G / plus I also credit/blame him for my huge supply of white-coned le( 10s & 14s ). My collection of caps is now beyond a couple of hundred and climbing. All are generic types like Philips, Seimens, RC, Mallory, F-DYNE, Suncap, & some unkown types . Great fun !!!



- It's a little like asking my opinion about being a steamboat captain on the Mississippi , while I'm in "midfroth" on some wild "white-water" rafting holiday ( or something ). Yes I'm wet (all) but that's the extent of it .

I just happen to be taking this exploratory journey right now. Mucking about ( tweaking) inside active components and their power supplies will have to wait for another year.

regards <> Earl K

[Earl K]

Hi - I'm out of the loop for a week .

- I must articulate my feelings about charge-coupling. "Don't listen without it" would be only a slight overstatement. The benifits are just too great to worry about quadrupling the cost of your investment in capacitance. Of course, I have a lot of capacitors - and they were all bought ( mostly )on the cheap .

- Last week , over the period of about 2 days, I listened to my system with just the charge coupling on the left channel . It was quite enthralling to listen to "sonic fog" dissipate like a morning mist as the caps charged up .

- I had also just swapped CD players - subbing in a Sony pro unit instead of an older Denon home unit. Briefily, the Denon has a sound that's similar to how a Bessel filter acts ( great transients at the expense of some power transfer or "body" ) while the Sony is all about power transfer without the transient speed ( still very smooth though ). After the swap was made it was apparent that I was listening to more distortion ( this message was delivered by a certain "agitation " factor coming from the Sony ) . Both of these decks are sub $1000.00 pieces . The sub in was followed by "once again" charge coupling just the left channel ( 2441 ) DC blocking caps & its' RC network .

- In fact , my 2441/40 has traditionally been a slightly more peaky driver than the 2450SL diaphragmed 2440. Once the charging was complete I thought the once smoother 2450Sl had now been replaced by a 2445. The difference was that stark & dramatic .

- Both sides are now "C-C"ed, & certain combination of caps are in place . I've essentially throttled these huge drivers back to my best emulation of a soft-domed tweeter ( but with more clarity ). Not exactly the type of thing to brag about over at the "AA" "HE" forum - but still intriguing to realize that caps can do this .

I'll have to add more to this "testimonial" next week when I get a break .

<> Earl K

[4313B]

"I must articulate my feelings about charge-coupling. "Don't listen without it" would be only a slight overstatement. The benifits are just too great to worry about quadrupling the cost of your investment in capacitance. Of course, I have a lot of capacitors - and they were all bought ( mostly ) on the cheap.

Agreed.

[Robh3606]

"Both sides are now "C-C"ed, & certain combination of caps are in place . I've essentially throttled these huge drivers back to my best emulation of a soft-domed tweeter ( but with more clarity ). Not exactly the type of thing to brag about over at the "AA" "HE" forum - but still intriguing to realize that caps can do this . "

Hello Earl

Yeah it sure is sweet. I just want to try some polystyrene to add to the mix.

Thanks Giskard for that link you posted!

You know that seems to me to be just the place lots of those guys have minimal 1 st order crossovers so implimentation would be cheap to say the least. Certainly can't hurt.

Rob

[B&KMan]

"I have tried some VERY expensive caps that I always found to be TOO bright and forward sounding with JBL and Altec horns!"

Yeah, it's a balancing act to be sure. The polystyrenes should take off some of that brightness and forwardness associated with metallized polypropylenes while adding depth and transparency.

G.T. has said on numerous occasions to use the best polypropylene capacitors one can buy and then just charge couple them. That is the most expensive solution.

I'm pretty much done with funding dielectric research myself post # 6

Hi again Giskard and all.

After read many thread in this question of caps selection in regards of Dc Charge , I little confuse...

well, if money is not a restriction , what is the best mounting caps type in according on DC charge schematic. Polypropelene , paper film and foil, combo ???

thanks for your expose your high level experience in that....


Jean.

[Robh3606]

"After read many thread in this questoon of caps selection in regards of Dc Charge , I little confuse...

well, if money is not a restriction , what is the best mounting caps type in according on DC charge schematic. Polypropelene , paper film and foil, combo ???

thanks for your expose your high level experience in that.... "

Try and see what you like best with your drivers. I use mylar with polypropylene bypass Charge Coupled. Sounds fine in my application, compensation for the 2344 horn. Opinions may differ only yours matters.

Rob

[B&KMan]

Try and see what you like best with your drivers. I use mylar with polypropylene bypass Charge Coupled. Sounds fine in my application, compensation for the 2344 horn. Opinions may differ only yours matters.

Rob

hi and thanks,

The mylar is more soft or more hard in compare polypropylene ???

the polypropylene is film and foil or other type ???



Jean.

[Ian Mackenzie]

the polypropylene is film and foil or other type ???

Within this category are many options, metalised film, film /foil., oil with film and foil, tin foil, aluminium or coppor foil.

Some of the better capacitors used self cancelling windings for low inductance, and specific winding tension to contol vibrations.

While charge coupling may be beneficial where large values dictate use of medium grade material, I have seldum seen charge coulping in Audio Research pre or power amps using hi quaklity film/foil capacitors.

Ian