Capacitors...

[Earl K]

Hi Rob

Thanks for the quick reply. I realize asking for opinions on this topic is just sooo subjective - but then - thats what musical enjoyment is all about.

FWIW; your comments fairly neatly track my experiences to this date. In fact, I'm now quite sceptical about whether or not I'd ever want to listen to a JBL driver with just polypropylene between the signal & my ears. ( that's a challenge to Hovland to ship me $700.00 of free caps for evaluation ). I find I have to always mix in some Mylar to balance against MPP. "Time Smear" as Hovland will comment is not an issue if one keeps different types on separate sides of the polarizing resistor. I find the different dielectric types enhance different octaves. Unfortunately ( for MPP ) it's most transparent area seems to be just about the same area that in JBL drivers is most prone to audible / modal / diaphragm breakup . Solens have an exaggerated sense in this area - - they seem to offer not enough below or above this danger range to balance the "Pandoras Box" of sound they just let through . I'm still searching for things to help create that balance for the Solens . ( they are "fast" & priced to move, afterall ) ..

All my listening is done in a biamp mode - these capacitors are just there as DC blockers - so I'm dealing with large values ( up to 120 uf at times in the C-C network ). I haven't C-C my RC compesation networks - just overloaded them with polystyrenes .

I have created some highly listenable/likeable combos - that almost make me forget that a "straight-wire" still sounds best . ( and just for you Rob. - I find the "phase changes" from adding any DC blocking cap network is highly audible.) The addition of this new "part" consistently changes the amount of depth I perceive in the soundstage ( it always collapses to some degree and moves forward ). I was blaming low quality caps for a while but now I find I can restore some of the lost depth by time-aligning - more or less . Should have thought of that earlier.

regards <> Earl K

[Ian Mackenzie]

Earl,

Just having my night cap before nodding off (Bo thinks I never sleep....muhahahaha)

Great to see some more subjective reviews.

I know exactly what you are saying about the Solens.. a sort of itchy sound that gets right up your nose, like a veiling of certain ssss sounds.

I think the Solen film foils are worse, IMO they are wrapped too tight (in the blurb Solen remark about the precision winding of film/foil on high tension machines), tight winding tends to accentuate certain spatial capacitor qualities.

In the JBL library there is some interesting comments from JBL about capacitor dieletric winding tensions and the effect of biasing.

I heard Solens in a Cary SET used as coupling caps a while back, they destroyed the velvet sound of the amp, yes it was more detailed, but sounded unnatural to me and I felt irritated and could not enjoy the music.

I think the AEON caps are somewhat different, they are more relaxed, and tend to improve with film/foil bypassing. I'm using AEON 60 uf bypassed with 0.1 film foil AEON for the 2122 high pass network. Its very clean and snappy

I recall when I bought Hovlands for the 2344's / 2420/Dr2426R8 and was quite sceptical having paid about $200AUS for 4 caps.....

Anyways when I installed them they sounded actually quite sweet tonally, and yet still portrayed micro dynamics without any harhness at all. They improved with breakin after about 50 hours.

I never bothered to bypass or bias them.

I have since bought some more Hovlands for the 2405 network, and a fellow audio collegue has commented the 2405s do not spit like he recalled previously.



Ian

Here you can just see the AEONs with bypass film /foil in the rear mounted crossover board of my big JBL's.

[Earl K]

Hi Ian

Thanks for your thoughts on this. Much appreciated. As you can probably surmise,,, I'm trying to wiggle out of the need to purchase Hovlands - and will likely exhaust many avenues first - the C-C network is a great test-bed for this feint .

a sort of itchy sound that gets right up your nose, like a veiling of certain ssss sounds.

Yes, it sounds like a sort of crossover distortion that's impossible to ignore - and it just worsens with bypassing. But before burying Solen - to be fair to them , I'm going to have to do extensive listening to Altec drivers with Solens. I find Altecs have a completely different damping characteristic ( translated into capacitor speak - they sound more like my Mylar cap signatures ) - as a consequence they might be able to benefit from the "heat" the Solen gives. This is of course a lot of blah blah to most - but oh well !

re; the "AEONs" . Forgive my ignorance but what type of cap are they ? & Where/Who are they available/from ?

regards <> Earl K

[4313B]

"But before burying Solen - to be fair to them , I'm going to have to do extensive listening to Altec drivers with Solens."

Good idea. And not just Altec drivers either.

[Earl K]

Hi Giskard

And not just Altec drivers either.

Actually my first thought was to try that test with my B&C DE25 drivers.
They have Mylar diaphragms which to my ears always need something added . My observation about Mylar diaphragms is they are somewhat reminiscent of a full-range phenolic - though not nearly as slow and rounded in the leading edge but going down that same road. A nice diaphragm for up close & personal listening. Adding some edge ( a Solen ) back to the leading edge might be a good idea (even if it is a contrived sort of thing ) .

regards < .Earl K

[Ian Mackenzie]

Earl,

The AEON's are metalised polyrop, 250 volt,

It just occurred to me you could also try the cheaper North Creek metalised capacitors.

They are made for audio crossovers and have been wound to be more mellow than conventional polyprop caps.

Here is the link:http://www.northcreekmusic.com/Zen.html

There is also some cool stuff there on bypassing.

Ian

[GordonW]

Are those Aeons, or are they Axons... the caps from Orca Designs, made in Germany? Because I have used other Axon stuff, but never seen Aeon caps... that'd be a new one on me!

Now, the Axon logo kind of LOOKS looks like the X is an E, due to the stylized script they use... that might be the source of the confusion?? I've attached a pic of the Axon logo...

Regards,
Gordon.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Gordon,

Thats a good observation,

Mine are definately the Aeons by Orca from a local distributor.

(sorry if I confused anyone)

Ian

[4313B]

Originally posted by Ian Mackenzie
It just occurred to me you could also try the cheaper North Creek metalised capacitors.

They are made for audio crossovers and have been wound to be more mellow than conventional polyprop caps.

Here is the link:http://www.northcreekmusic.com/Zen.html

There is also some cool stuff there on bypassing.

Ian

Yeah, we went over this in the first version of the forum. Or maybe it was the second version Anyway, I'm glad it's being brought up again though and you guys are sorting it all out because I'm sure sick of "ranting" about it

Check these out too if you can

http://www.rtie.com/imb/audio_fc.htm

They bought Electro-Cap which many of you with old JBL's might notice is stamped on some of your capacitors. G.T. has stated that he thought Electro-Cap was very good.

[Earl K]

Hi Ian / Giskard

Thanks for the links guys. I had forgotten all about North Creek. They even answered most of my capacitor construction questions .

Plus, I just found out today what happens when an overdose of polystyrene bypass caps is added into my system .

"Too much air turns into a low-lying fog" - hindering visibility .

regards <. Earl K ( having way too much fun cooking with caps ) &

[4313B]

"Notice to Polystyrene Capacitor Customers:

Our Full Line of Polystyrene Capacitors Is Once More Available

Bas Lim at Reliable Capacitors has developed a new, reliable source of polystyrene film dielectric for capacitors. After testing the new film for six months, Reliable and Finch & Marsh are able once more to offer their full range of polystyrene AudioCaps, MultiCaps, and Rels"

http://www.capacitors.com/

[Earl K]

Hi Ian

I heard Solens in a Cary SET used as coupling caps a while back, they destroyed the velvet sound of the amp, yes it was more detailed, but sounded unnatural to me and I felt irritated and could not enjoy the music.

After overdosing on big value Mallory polystyrenes for a couple of days , I feel I now fully understand that statement ( in reverse ). I was able to add so much air to the top end of my large format drivers with the polystyrenes that the new addition actually blanketed out most of the great articulation & depth that had existed before I started mucking about. Without something else to bring in clarity - it was ever so smooth & silky - just not very articulate or clear or detailed . That situation even existed with no DC blocking caps in place. I have just today increased the MPP count on both sides and actually added a bit (.47uf) of Solens to the one side that uses an aluminum diaphragm. This has restored a ton of clarity / speed / & depth of field . Yep, a lot of fun .
I wonder now whether or not that Cary SET is heavily weighted with polystyrenes.

I've retired my Charge-Coupled Network for the time being while I work on the RC midrange suppression balance . I need to rethink it's usage .

Additionally & maybe most significant, it seems the C-C network is weighing down the tiny power supply capacitors as found in my Bryston 2BLP. If one compares physical sizes of load cap to amplifier source cap I was up to about a 2 or 3 to 1 ratio ( in strict cubic displacement ). The culprit seems to be the need to quadruple the size of capacitance load - as seen by the amp. I have a feeling that is untenable for the maintenance of the amplifiers performance. I sure heard a significant "hit" in speed from this setup. Using 4 physically huge 20uf oil caps just made that speed hit worse - amp turned into a slug with just about no top end . This also contributed to my collapsing sound-stage .

So, I'm back living with bypassed MPP in oil. These seem to offer a nice balance to all these factors & consideratons .

regards < .Earl K

[Earl K]

Hi Giskard

Were Electro Caps Polypropylene or Mylar ?

regards < Earl K

[4313B]

Hi Earl,

The ones JBL used were mylar.

I used to buy their mylar for mains and their 0.01 uF polypropylene and 0.005 uF polystyrene for bypassers, basically G.T.'s formula for systems such as the L250, 250Ti, XPL200A, etc.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Earl,

Its like tomato source, add a bit and it helps, pour it on and out forget whats under it.

Some say you should only add 1/100th or 1000th the original value while others say cascade with decreasing values (but I think that are referring to caps of the same kind/brand).

To quote North Creek

"Classically, bypassing a capacitor means paralleling a very small cap (0.5% to 1% of the base cap) to improve the effective high frequency performance of the base cap. While this works to a point, the problem with simple bypassing it that it tends to sound a little discontinuous, with the large cap dominating the signature at the low end while the bypass cap dominates the upper extreme."

"Cascade Bypassing (or simply "Cascading") is a bypassing method that yields the best and most homogeneous sounding combination of capacitance. Cascading is essentially paralleling smaller and smaller capacitors of increasing voltage to reach the target value. We usually suggest a cascade of 5% to 25% steps, with each smaller cap having a higher voltage rating."

"Cascading sounds better than simple bypassing because it yields an overall homogeneity to the sound of the equivalent capacitor"


Regards amp loading I recall in the 5235 manual they give guide lines on DC blockers, provided they are in series it should not matter to the amp.

By the way, North Creek have some Zen 100ufs metalised caps on special, bypassed with their Harmony woul be cool.

"Harmony Capacitors were designed specifically to bypass other metallized capacitors. Their signature is lightweight with a wealth of detail, and the top end has a nice sparkle without being bright or forward. They are also much quieter than most capacitors, particularly those that wound with very high tension. We best describe the Harmony caps as "cleaning up the sound" of other capacitors"

I may even order some for a play while on holidays.

Ian