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Thread: Discussion Thread JBL 4343 to 4344 upgrade

  1. #286
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    Al,

    Beautiful!

    Nice to see some pics of your handy work.

    Ian

  2. #287
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    Ian,

    Thanks for the kind words. Getting these crossovers to the state their in now gives me a deep respect for people like Gregg Timbers and the amount of work that goes into getting them right. I can work out the voltage and frequency dividers, but that still doesn't mean they will necessarily sound right. As I have found the components used have a lot to do with the sound. I couldn't believe at first the difference in the Auricaps as compared to the Solens in the sound. IMHO the Auriacaps can't be beat in a total passive crossover. I still haven't made up my mind whether to leave the 2421s with the 2309 horns in or go with my Westlake clones with the 2441s. I really like the sound of the Westlake style horns but I will need to modify the crossover slightly bringing down the frequencies between 1K and 4K about 2 decibels. At any rate it's been awhile since the 4344 clones have made me smile from ear to ear.

    Regards
    AL

  3. #288
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    Al,

    I assume you are referring to charge coupling the Solens?

    Ian

  4. #289
    Senior Member alskinner's Avatar
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    Ian

    Right. The Solens do quite well in a charged coupled crossover. I just couldn't get them to sound right in a total passive configuration. Of course this is just my opinniion and others may have a different take. That's one reason I don't post as often as I should. What works for me may not be someone elses cup of tea.

    AL

  5. #290
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    Al,

    The usual disclaimers are always appropriate.

    On that note can you decribe your system configuration and other equipment.

    It was rather nice as I recall.

    Ian

  6. #291
    Senior Member alskinner's Avatar
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    4344 clones

    The 4344 system consists of the crosovers pictured and the standard driver compliment 2235H, 2122H, 2421 and 2309 horns and athe 077/2405 tweetrers. As pictured above I have experimented with the Westlake style horns with 2441s and the 076/2403 tweeters. Although the standard 4344 compliment is excellent, I am leaning towards Westlake style horns and 076 as the final product. Again this is a personal preference as there is something about the Westlake horns that gel with the rest of the system that I can't get the 2421s to quite do. I have 3 pairs of 2122s as for me it is hard to find a mid bass that will do what they do best especially geling the vocal range between them and the horns. I am using my trusty Threshold Stasis II to power with and a set of 4400 white crossovers. With the system as it is I use very little equalization except as stated earlier when I am runniing the Westlake horns I find the need to lower the range between 1K an 4K about 2 decibles.

    Al
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  7. #292
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    Al,

    Very nice. Excellent choice of equipment.

    I take it the WAF factor is better with the Westlake style horns than those in your avatar!

    The thing I like about this is your getting the sound you want by gradually working on it over a period of time and its not broken the bank.

    Ian

  8. #293
    Senior Member alskinner's Avatar
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    Ian,

    As you know, the 4344/4345 can be some of the best sounding speakers out there. But as stated elsewhere they are not plug and play. Careful consideration of the cabinet construction, crossovers and yes equalization is important in getting them to sound and perform correctly. I have never understood some folks that are against using equalizers. When used wisely they can help with room corrections. If I remember correctly most studios that used the the big JBL Monitors used equalization with room treatments along with careful RTA measurements to get the optimal sound out of these systems. Having said that poorly made or implemented equalization can have the opposite effect. To me the White's are some of the most natural sounding equalizers out there. I think this may be one of the reasons JBL bashers exist. I bet most of them have never heard a properly tuned and equalized set.

    Along with this the rest of the signal chain has a great effect especially amplifiers. As a great admirer of Nelson Pass's work they for me fit like a glove with the big monitors. Although I enjoy of the Stasis II, I am setting my sights on a Pass 250.5, as I have heard nothing but good things about it.

    I believe the 4344/4345 have potential that will go on for years to come. As knowledge is gained in the areas of crossover design, the can only get better and better.

    As far as my avatar, I am also a fan of the 2360 horn, although not as articulate as the 4344s it has a special appeal all it's own. Bu t I don't want to get off topic.

    I am very fortunate to have a great understanding wife, that supports my hobby. She has been great listening for over two years as the project has come together. She is brutally honest, if it sounds like crap she'll tell me. But in there present form she enjoys listening to them as much as I do.

    AL

  9. #294
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    Nice post Al.
    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...39&postcount=7

    I posted this this morning and mention it here as there is relevance to the upgrade of the 4343.

    This post will possibly be moved in which case I will attach a word doc to this thread at some point on a home user guide of the 4 way monitors.

    Ian

  10. #295
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    Following the recently closed thread on Cable Busters please find below a summảry of links to some aspéct of ủpgading the 4343 monitors.

    Note in fact an 8 pole speakon connector and Cảrdás Binding posts following consideration for updating the entire system.

    Thẻ complexity of the project being beyond that of most users


    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?6633-Discussion-Thread-JBL-4343-to-4344-upgrade&p=69854&viewfull=1#post69854
    If you do plan on an external network you will need to arrange a suitable means of cabling to the outside world. I used an 8 Pole Speakon Plug and Socket. There a several advantages with this style of connector, its air-tight, has very good electrical characertistics, takes a 13 gauge cable and the polarity of the individual driver cabling is identified and maintained without fear of error.
    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?6633-Discussion-Thread-JBL-4343-to-4344-upgrade&p=75219&viewfull=1#post75219
    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?6633-Discussion-Thread-JBL-4343-to-4344-upgrade/page12

    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?6633-Discussion-Thread-JBL-4343-to-4344-upgrade&p=76308&viewfull=1#post76308

    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?6633-Discussion-Thread-JBL-4343-to-4344-upgrade&p=102142&viewfull=1#post102142

  11. #296
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    Upgrade to 4344 "B's"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    Upgrade 6 – Upgrade drivers to 4344 spec.

    1. Replace or recone LF drivers to 2235H

    2. Replace or recone MF drivers to 2122H

    3. Replace or rediaphragm HF compression driver to 2425J.


    1 Well I have discussed that to death above.
    2. The 2122H is an upgrade of the 2121 and according to Giskard and others a better driver.

    Here are a number of links that will answer all your questions and more!

    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...6&postcount=11
    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...82&postcount=7
    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...95&postcount=4
    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...ighlight=2122H
    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...ighlight=2122H
    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...46&postcount=2
    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...91&postcount=3
    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...ighlight=2122H
    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...ighlight=2122H
    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...ighlight=2122H
    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...ighlight=2122H
    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...ighlight=2122H

    3. This is an interested upgrade.

    Firstly, if you own a stock 4343 I would think twice about pitching out the 2420 for the 2425J. Some members have reported better sonics from the Alnico 2420/2421.

    Secondly, I am not sure if the upgrade to 2121 aluminium diaphragm is still available as a spare part from JBL, I know they are around on E bay sometimes......someone might want to check this out.

    Regardless either is better than the original 2420 diaphragm.

    The aluminuim version of the diamond surround diaphragm apparently sounds better. If you are really keen you might want to sniff out the aquaplas coated 275nd diaphragms. There might be some technical variations but I think the results would be rather tasty.

    The issue with these things is mass, stiffness and self damping....much like any other driver actually.

    There are a number of threads that explain how these diaphragms work and so on and so forth.

    Please arrange the upgrading of the diaphragm by a JBL authorised service centre. Edgewound is one Authorised JBL service agent I am aware of on the forums although I have not heard much of him lately.


    My recommendation is don't do any driver upgrades yourself, just call your local JBL service agent and tell them what you need.

    If someone wanted to upgrade their 4343's to 4344's wouldn't be better to upgrade them to 4344 "B's"?

  12. #297
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    That thread is over nine years old so things have changed including the availability of recone kits and drivers.

    That said l know of 4343 owners who wanted to retain the integrity of the 4343 and on my advice they rebuilt the original 3143 networks using high quality parts and they are exceedingly happy.

    I will come back to you later this week with an appropriate response of available options.

  13. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    That thread is over nine years old so things have changed including the availability of recone kits and drivers.

    That said l know of 4343 owners who wanted to retain the integrity of the 4343 and on my advice they rebuilt the original 3143 networks using high quality parts and they are exceedingly happy.

    I will come back to you later this week with an appropriate response of available options.

    I should have said
    4344 Mk II.


  14. #299
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    That network is specific to the drivers in
    that system.

    You can plug play but it won't deliver anywhere near the potential of a correctly optimised system.

    To me it’s the difference of a wall of sound with the paint peeling of the walls to that which sounds fucking amazing at any volume level. ��.

    Why is this? The 4344mk11 crossover voltage drivers have been carefully optimised for the woofer x###, the 2123H, the 275nd and the 2405.

    If you connect any old compression driver like a 2425, 2420 or a 2446 to the 4344mk11 network it will go but it will sound odd if you know what a genuine 4344mk11 sounds like. Trouble is people dismiss it as a Japanese model sound. Hence the varying opinions of likes and dislikes of morphed attempts to upgrade these systems. What you don’t know you don’t know and may never know of course but life goes on and eventually you will tire of it and do something else.

    The better way is to measure the original system very carefully documenting each drivers response, voltage drive and impedance. Then test and learn the impact of alternative drivers against the original. Attempting this with a PA led bar spectrum analyser, iPhone or YouTube comparisons won’t cut it.

    If you look up Giskard various threads he did investigate using the 2123H (as used in the 4344mk11) with some large format boat anchor drivers using the 3155 network. Some people of reported positive results.

  15. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    That network is specific to the drivers in
    that system.

    You can plug play but it won't deliver anywhere near the potential of a correctly optimised system.

    To me it’s the difference of a wall of sound with the paint peeling of the walls to that which sounds fucking amazing at any volume level. ��.

    Why is this? The 4344mk11 crossover voltage drivers have been carefully optimised for the woofer x###, the 2123H, the 275nd and the 2405.

    If you connect any old compression driver like a 2425, 2420 or a 2446 to the 4344mk11 network it will go but it will sound odd if you know what a genuine 4344mk11 sounds like. Trouble is people dismiss it as a Japanese model sound. Hence the varying opinions of likes and dislikes of morphed attempts to upgrade these systems. What you don’t know you don’t know and may never know of course but life goes on and eventually you will tire of it and do something else.

    The better way is to measure the original system very carefully documenting each drivers response, voltage drive and impedance. Then test and learn the impact of alternative drivers against the original. Attempting this with a PA led bar spectrum analyser, iPhone or YouTube comparisons won’t cut it.

    If you look up Giskard various threads he did investigate using the 2123H (as used in the 4344mk11) with some large format boat anchor drivers using the 3155 network. Some people of reported positive results.

    Ian, can you give your impression of the difference in sound quality between the stock 4343 and the 4344 and 4344MKII? If I planned on turning a 4343 into a 4344MKII, I would attempt to update all of the drivers if possible. I realize it would be almost as easy to just build the 4344MKII's and sell my 4343's. But nevertheless what's your take?

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