Compliance adhesive - potential aftermarket option for DIY

[DMMD]

Interesting conversation with an engineer working on Focal/JMlab. Talking about glues... and the use of 3M 1300L and 847L for foam-basket compliance. Although just 2 of the nearly 30 glues that JBL uses/has used....both seem to be in recone kits along with Moyen.

Anyway, he noted that 3M Weatherstripping Adhesive 8001 seems to be a close consumer eq of 1300L. He has used both, with the advantage being that 8001 is avail at several autoparts and marine parts chains.

Foam bonding family is the same, set time is same, base material is slightly diferent (but both rubbers), viscosity is thicker (but easy to smooth).

Anyone here used this as a substitute? Anyone think that it won't work? Just stick with waterbased white/clear goo and the weaker bond?

http://multimedia.mmm.com/mws/mediaw...4LLLWspw2PB3rt-

[GordonW]

I've never had a case where the bond from foam/paper with white glue, wasn't STRONGER than the materials themselves. And, if you leave a thin film of the original adhesive on the basket, the white glue will bond to that, stronger than the internal strength of the foam surround itself, too...

So, the weatherstrip adhesive may be stronger than that, but will it really matter? Only if you're going overboard, and cleaning baskets down to bare metal... that's the only case you would need to use something like this.

Regards,
Gordon.

[edgewound]

"So, the weatherstrip adhesive may be stronger than that, but will it really matter? Only if you're going overboard, and cleaning baskets down to bare metal... that's the only case you would need to use something like this

Dear GordonW....Did I hear(read)you correctly? Cleaning the frame down to bare metal is going overboard?

With all due respect, Sir, I believe the terminology is doing it right. If you leave any old surround or glue material on the frame, you're doing an incomplete job and not doing the professional job your customers deserve. Any excess old gunk left on the frame will certainly alter the resting position of the cone/voice coil and therefore adversley affect the performance of the repaired woofer. I'm sorry....but it's exactly the same as rebuilding the heads on an engine without degreasing the block first and scraping off ALL of the old gasket material. If your going to get paid to do it....do it right....thoroughly.

Thanks for listening...and it's not my purpose here to offend anyone.

Edgewound

[4313B]

You always clean the frames to bare metal. That's a given.

it's not my purpose here to offend anyone.

Understood. That's my job.

[Guido]

Hope nobody mind me jumping in here.

The JBL-Pro Importer for Germany can't sell me the bostic glue any longer! He told me it was to dangerous to work with and JBL stopped it. Moyen should work as a substitude.
I already had 2 cone kits that came with moyen only but prefered to use my spare bostic glue first.

What do you guys think?

[4313B]

I like the Moyen better myself. Didn't at first (a change), do now. You should be able to buy the Moyen as a misc part. I think it's something like $7 a tube.

[Guido]

I like the Moyen better myself. Didn't at first (a change), do now. You should be able to buy the Moyen as a misc part. I think it's something like $7 a tube.

Good to see ya back

[4313B]

Good to see ya back

I'm only here to answer specific questions. I'll endeavor to stay out of the continual stream of inane threads about such things as L100's and their impact on human society, various opinions and all that kind of crap.

[norealtalent]

I'm only here to answer specific questions. I'll endeavor to stay out of the continual stream of inane threads about such things as L100's and their impact on human society, various opinions and all that kind of crap.

This is what makes the Forums so interesting,we can and do challenge each others opinions but at the end of the day its all just for grins.

Ian[/QUOTE]



Speaker disease, we just can't beat it. I was trying to stay out of it before I realized I had it.

[4313B]

This is what makes the Forums so interesting,we can and do challenge each others opinions but at the end of the day its all just for grins.

Ian

That would be an opinion I no longer share. My point is that I am no longer interested in getting sucked in to speculation, conjecture, personal opinions, etc. on the subject of loudspeakers. That should be fine with everyone. Most people can't seem to handle my kind of discourse. If I can answer a specific question then great.

Here the topic is compliance adhesive -

353353-001 ADH,MOYEN,(QT),PACKED IN 41.50 $ USD EA

353196-001 ADHESIVE TUBE, MOYEN 308 7.00 $ USD EA

[Ian Mackenzie]

My quote above was taken completely out of context. I really hate that.

I used the phase in another thread to dowse inflated opinions that were in my view unsupported by any fact....I hate that...that sort of thing belongs in the general forums. We do have a problem with mis information around here particularly when people start poking around with original designs.

When however technical issues like reconing are a topic of discussion....there usually is only a right and wrong way.

Ian

[GordonW]

Almost all JBL baskets are painted, or coated with something under the glue. Are you all seriously advocating, taking off the factory PAINT? Because "taking it down to bare metal" would be making the recone MORE UNLIKE the original status, than leaving that paint (and the tiny film of Moyen glue that has penetrated said paint) would be.

And seriously, if anyone thinks that the thickness of a film of glue (after wiping it down with solvent, to rid any of the "chunks" of anything that might remain from an old surround) is going to change the resting position of a surround enough to make even a remotely measuable (much less listenable) difference, I recommend they lock themselves in a room with a Dumax analyzer, an FFT and/or a LEAP/LMS system and test for themselves. I defy anyone to show differences, that even come CLOSE to the magnitude normal driver-to-driver and kit-to-kit manufacturing differences. Just the difference between the molding/stamping of TWO PAPER CONES compared to each other, will make a bigger sonic difference.

It's really a matter of understanding what makes a difference, and what doesn't mean diddly $#!^... to put it bluntly.

And it's funny, that this would even be an issue, when there's actual honest-to-god JBL current EMPLOYEES, that say PUTTING THE SURROUND ON THE FRONT of a 128H cone DOESN'T make a difference in the sound, as evidenced by threads here previously. Why not call out the people that are really burying their heads in the sand, maybe?

Regards,
Gordon.

[edgewound]

Well that's right, Gordon...and one of my points exactly. The micron, or so, powdercoating is an original application at the factory, and not until the 1980's. Early Jim Lansing, JBL/ Altec were bare metal the the surround landing...I've seen it...be cause I am factory trained and certified to RESTORE JBL products to FACTORY current specs. Let's not forget that this forum is call "Lansing Heritage"...not "Aftermarket...let's try to get close...to Jim Lansing products". I agree with Robh3606 on what the factory does and doesn't sanction as far as repairs to JBL products is concerned. And a foam surround replacement is one of them. Let's face it...it's not cheap to recone these various works of art and science with a Genuine JBL recone/diaphragm kit. But on the other hand...if you are going to do a foam surround replacement...you damn well better do the art work to look as factory original as possible...it's your responsibility as a preserver of this art form. If you dare put a foam surround on the front of a 128H, 128H-1, 122A, 126A, 129H, 125A, 127A, LE111A, LE10A, 2231A, 2235H, 136A, LE15A, 2215A...believe me there's more , 'cause I've done 'em all...cone...you've just RAPED the greatest legacy of American audio innovation...and screwed your customer in the process....Yeah, I know...a number of LE14A's with Lansalloy surrounds was installed on the front of the cone. People that bought JBL Vintage products are not stupid. But alot of aftermarket reconer's think they are....very often, the customer will opt to recone the speaker with a factory kit than do a surround replacement....unless you've done the factory recone before and have the reputation among the community to replace a rotten foam surround cleanly and original looking....it's an economic choice that becomes a win-win for customer and servicer. There are PLENTY of JBL's on eBay that are being passed off as ORIGINAL JBL parts, when they are in fact aftemarket wanna-be's...and good people are being ripped off. Talk about the proverbial Caveat Emptor. If you think for a minute that how you actually restore this stuff doesn't matter....you shouldn't be putting in your two cents here....because it's worth less than that. I found this forum by Google search and was blown away by the passion of the creators of this site, for the preservation and sharing of the historical meaning and significance that James Bullough (Martini) Lansing and his associates contributed to the landscape of American industry, and the scientific artform that set the standard for audio products around the globe. Am I passionate about this? You bet I am. Being JBL Authorized isn't to be taken for granted. I had prove to JBL Professional that I was qualified to represent these great legacy products...I was interviewed by the National Sales Manager at JBL Professional, as to why I thought I was qualified to be in business, and then I was trained and evaluated by the late Terry Duran who was in charge of training recone technician candidates at the factory in Northridge, CA. And believe me...not all candidates were certified. Some were rejected....didn't have the talent or patience to do it right. I'm proud to be a representative of JBL in the field, and I'll call out anyone who diminishes it....our heads are not in the sand! My kudos go out to the likes of Don McRitchie, Mr. Widget, Giskard, BoPutnam, Robh3606, Ian....I'm sure there are more....you guys really "get it"....I'm honored to have found this place.


I will now step down from my soapbox.

Respectfully,

Edgewound

[Ian Mackenzie]

I know I said Welcome Edgewound but Jesus.....

No need to step up to the Plate!

And I think Giskard can take his boots off.

Oh Well at least someone was paying attention to the last sentence in post 11.

I have to go to work tomorrow...Edgewound..please carry on.

Muhhahahaahahah.

Ian

[Guido]

........... Let's face it...it's not cheap to recone these various works of art and science with a Genuine JBL recone/diaphragm kit. But on the other hand...if you are going to do a foam surround replacement...you damn well better do the art work to look as factory original as possible...it's your responsibility as a preserver of this art form. .............
Edgewound

YEP!

But I would like to mention the 5% genuine kits that come with slightly sloping voice coil which makes centering an real art and the cones with spoiled glue on it that work well but look

Technically ok says the pro-importeur and does not exchange them.

OK the other 95% are dead fits!