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Thread: rank the 43XX series for me in order of best most accurate sound

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    rank the 43XX series for me in order of best most accurate sound

    I was a JBL dealer back in the 70's but only for consumer product. Except for the 4311 I have had no experience with their pro models. So I'm curious. Does a 4350 automatically win because of it's size and number of drivers?What about the the other 43 models? This is just for fun but opinions would be welcome please.

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    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    I'll bite.
    The comments below are for stock 43XX systems... if you take a 43XX and hot rod it with Be drivers, or modern woofers etc, that is cheating.

    While I appreciate the badass look of the 4350/55 and am impressed with its ability to create audio shock and awe, I would rather own any one of a dozen or more other speakers before I took up that much real estate with the 4350/55.

    I much prefer the 4345 and it would get my vote for best of the series.

    I haven't heard any of the re-worked 4343 variants so I can't speak to those, but I would actually rather have the 4333A over the 4343 if for no other reason than it is smaller.

    Now this is a cheat, but my favorite 43XX would be the 4365. It is not a true 43XX, but it was a damned fine speaker.


    Widget

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    I'll bite.The comments below are for stock 43XX systems... if you take a 43XX and hot rod it with Be drivers, or modern woofers etc, that is cheating.While I appreciate the badass look of the 4350/55 and am impressed with its ability to create audio shock and awe, I would rather own any one of a dozen or more other speakers before I took up that much real estate with the 4350/55.I much prefer the 4345 and it would get my vote for best of the series.I haven't heard any of the re-worked 4343 variants so I can't speak to those, but I would actually rather have the 4333A over the 4343 if for no other reason than it is smaller.Now this is a cheat, but my favorite 43XX would be the 4365. It is not a true 43XX, but it was a damned fine speaker.Widget
    Thanks for playing along! It's hard not to be seduced by the 4 way 4345 with it's 18" woofer!

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    Senior Member BMWCCA's Avatar
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    You do realize that if you're really looking for "accurate" sound, the 44xx series would offer more candidates. 4410, 4412, even 4411 or 4410A and 4412A would offer what your asking. But...

    Quote Originally Posted by jpw retired View Post
    Thanks for playing along! It's hard not to be seduced by the 4 way 4345 with it's 18" woofer!
    It certainly was for me!

    ". . . as you have no doubt noticed, no one told the 4345 that it can't work correctly so it does anyway."—Greg Timbers

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    Quote Originally Posted by jpw retired View Post
    Does a 4350 automatically win because of its size and number of drivers?What about the the other 43 models? This is just for fun but opinions would be welcome please.
    It was called the Texas Bookshelf back in the day for a reason. JBL wanted to make a statement that it was some sort of lab reference against which all others were judged. It was the biggest bad arse of all the 43XX legacy systems. I’ve heard several including a stock 4355 in a show room. It’s really not suitable to a lowboy profile sitting on the floor. Flown and inverted they project better. If played loud l am sure the 4350 would impress.

    The latest 4367 is reputed to be very good.

    The 4313B was one of my favourites as far as bookshelf systems are concerned.

    Back in the 70’s the 4333A and the 4343B were top flight large home systems that performed well on a descent vinyl turntable like a Linn. Very few 4345’s were manufactured. But the 4343-4344 were exported by the thousands to Japan. They worshipped those systems like gods back then and they still do today care of KenRick Sound.

    Carefully set with a mic and REW a cloned 4344 or a 4345 with really good signal path are hard to beat as a diy project. Others including Troels Gravesen have been inspired enough by the 4344 to design a four way system along similar lines using top pro drivers manufactured in Europe. His comment is it stands above any other top end hifi loudspeaker he has designed. Of course if you like a HiFi Sound and expensive towers with petite 6.5” drivers then this isn’t for you.

    http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/The-Loudspeaker.htm

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    Ian,I have a set of 4367's currently which I bought as soon as they were available. At the same time I owned a pair of DD-67000's but had to sell them when I retired and moved to a house that had no room for them. I miss them although the 4367 is still very satisfying giving the big live sound large JBL's are noted for.Back in the 80's and early 90's I had a set of 4430's but had no access to the pro 43 series in the 70's which is why I posted my question. The 4430's seemed to be a little less colored than say a L-300 was but still had a lot of output. In regards to DIY speakers I bought a bunch of raw JBL drivers in the late 70's. I went with dual 136A's, a 375 with a 2397 (Smith) horn, a 077 tweeter and a 12" midrange/bass driver (I can't remember the model number). I think I was trying to replicate a 4350 but with the 2397 horn which I though might sound better. Looking back on it I really had no idea what I was doing but probably though that somehow I could design a better system using JBL parts than JBL could! I bi-amped them at around 300hz and used JBL's passive networks for the rest of the system. I put the woofers side by side in a huge vented box (probably 10-12 cubic feet) and built a separate box for the 12" midrange which sat on the woofer cabinet and then put the horns on top of it. It was loud and proud and spray painted flat black but I could never get the 12" midrange to sound right (it sounded boxy in the lower midrange) so I ended up setting it off to the side and using the system as a three way. It sounded pretty good this way. Ultimately I sold them to an acquaintance who ran a nightclub. I felt kind of bad for the speakers as they ended up pumping out endless disco music for most of their life. After reading with great interest all of the information about DIY speaker projects on this site I realize how little I really know. So it's probably best for me to stick with JBL's production product although I still dream about building another pair of custom JBL speakers. JohnEdit: I couldn't get my reply to make paragraphs which makes it hard to read. Sorry.

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    Try the following:

    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    I want to hear a pair of 4348s and am betting they would be right there at the top of the line. None of the prior ~10" would be competitive with the differential drive, neodymium 2251s used in these monitors and the 1500FE is no slouch.

    https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=477067592304607

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    Quote Originally Posted by Earl K View Post
    Try the following:

    Thanks. Hopefully those settings will allow spacing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jpw retired View Post
    Thanks. Hopefully those settings will allow spacing.
    They don't restore full functionality, but they help a lot!

    Thanks Earl!


    Widget

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    Would be almost easier to write up in MS World and attach a screenshot

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    Lightbulb

    Hi JPW,

    Diverting to diy to respond to your post……
    This post is about three short stories on my adventures building loudspeakers.

    Introduction
    I think we all enter diy loudspeaker building with the notion that we can design and build a better loudspeaker wth JBL components than JBL could. This is still the case with the number of pick your brain threads we see.

    Story One
    My earliest loudspeaker building excitement occurred when l was at high school in form three. I wasn’t great at woodworking. I would loose concentration. My attempt at dovetail joints was compromised by planing down 3/4 inch pine boards to less than 1/2 an inch. I guess l got carried away ankle deep in shavings Lol. The second box was made out of floor boards.

    Story Two
    Then a few years later after reading a JBL 4343 brochure repeatedly in my geography class at high school l decided l just had to build them. It was an interesting project with similarities to a Jules Verne novel.

    The whole thing was shrouded in secrecy as l went around to each JBL Pro distributor in Melbourne and bought different 4343 components from each one. This was because they were purchased as replacement drivers.

    2231A Zephyr Products
    2121 Sound City
    2420/2307/2308 Encel
    2405 Dynasound

    I was young, ambitious, smart and yes l lied. I actually became fairly proficient at it. Creating a diversion in a HiFi show room is an art while a friend measured the ports with my father’s tape measure. Then we would politely leave.

    Though l did show some initiative when l wrote to JBL for the 4343 network schematic. Gary Margolis politely declined my request and suggested l consider an active crossover. The JBL 5234 network was too expensive at the time and so l came up with a schematic after reading the Martin Colloms HiFi Handbook. I trimmed the horn network by ear. There was a four position switched L pad using a Lorlin rotary switch.

    Unfortunately the cheap low voltage bi polar electro caps in the mid range filter exploded during a party one night. I did bi amp it later. Subjectively nothing came close at the time. These days l design customer journeys & analyse customer experience analytics. On the Bain Net Promotor Score that project was actually fairly straightforward and low effort. There was no uncertainty or angst about getting it to work properly. The outcome was excellent. I was a happy customer.

    Story Three
    Then l had a relapse of the audio plague when l was about 40. I blame the longer term effects on the LHS forums…..Lol. What l learned during a mid life crisis was that building a clone is much easier than designing a loudspeaker by yourself using parts and an idea you don’t know much about. Trust me it just is.

    Despite all the research and obsessions that it will work doesn’t always translate into something you want to listen to. But these days as an hobbyist being able to make measurements correctly after you listen carefully and then documenting your progress can shorten down the cycle of meeting your expectations. Otherwise why do it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    Hi JPW,

    Diverting to diy to respond to your post……
    This post is about three short stories on my adventures building loudspeakers.

    Introduction
    I think we all enter diy loudspeaker building with the notion that we can design and build a better loudspeaker wth JBL components than JBL could. This is still the case with the number of pick your brain threads we see.

    Story One
    My earliest loudspeaker building excitement occurred when l was at high school in form three. I wasn’t great at woodworking. I would loose concentration. My attempt at dovetail joints was compromised by planing down 3/4 inch pine boards to less than 1/2 an inch. I guess l got carried away ankle deep in shavings Lol. The second box was made out of floor boards.

    Story Two
    Then a few years later after reading a JBL 4343 brochure repeatedly in my geography class at high school l decided l just had to build them. It was an interesting project with similarities to a Jules Verne novel.

    The whole thing was shrouded in secrecy as l went around to each JBL Pro distributor in Melbourne and bought different 4343 components from each one. This was because they were purchased as replacement drivers.

    2231A Zephyr Products
    2121 Sound City
    2420/2307/2308 Encel
    2405 Dynasound

    I was young, ambitious, smart and yes l lied. I actually became fairly proficient at it. Creating a diversion in a HiFi show room is an art while a friend measured the ports with my father’s tape measure. Then we would politely leave.

    Though l did show some initiative when l wrote to JBL for the 4343 network schematic. Gary Margolis politely declined my request and suggested l consider an active crossover. The JBL 5234 network was too expensive at the time and so l came up with a schematic after reading the Martin Colloms HiFi Handbook. I trimmed the horn network by ear. There was a four position switched L pad using a Lorlin rotary switch.

    Unfortunately the cheap low voltage bi polar electro caps in the mid range filter exploded during a party one night. I did bi amp it later. Subjectively nothing came close at the time. These days l design customer journeys & analyse customer experience analytics. On the Bain Net Promotor Score that project was actually fairly straightforward and low effort. There was no uncertainty or angst about getting it to work properly. The outcome was excellent. I was a happy customer.

    Story Three
    Then l had a relapse of the audio plague when l was about 40. I blame the longer term effects on the LHS forums…..Lol. What l learned during a mid life crisis was that building a clone is much easier than designing a loudspeaker by yourself using parts and an idea you don’t know much about. Trust me it just is.

    Despite all the research and obsessions that it will work doesn’t always translate into something you want to listen to. But these days as an hobbyist being able to make measurements correctly after you listen carefully and then documenting your progress can shorten down the cycle of meeting your expectations. Otherwise why do it?
    Ian,

    What a fun learning experience you have had with your hobby. Over the years I have read many of your posts and replies and it's clear you have amassed a great deal of knowledge. I would love to hear some of your design efforts if we weren't half a world away from each other (I live in Colorado and winter in Florida).

    I was able to feed my obsession by owning my own hi-fi shops for about 45 years. It took up most of my spare time so I indulged myself buying and trying many dozens of different products over the years. Despite access to vaunted high end audiophile speaker brands I would always come back to large format JBL speakers for my most enjoyable sound. I'm a musician/guitarist used to being exposed to live amplified sound. Lesser dynamically capable speakers tend to make me yawn.

    In the early 2000's I did decide to take another shot at building a JBL based system for myself using 2226 woofer, 2426/2344a midrange/horn and 2404 tweeter (the butt cheek horns). The next generation of JBL monitor parts after the 43xx series. I tri-amped it. It actually sounded pretty good and measured well above about 600hz and below 300hz. I had some peaks in the response probably from cabinet resonances in the 350-500hz range I never had time to resolve. They ended up in my rather large garage and impress friends I have over. My neighbors comment on them too (ha).

    I would love to have a pristine set of 4343 or 4345's fall into my lap to compare with my 4367's. So if a pair were to pop up near where I live I might be tempted.

    Building another DIY JBL still excites me. I have a neighbor with all the woodworking tools and skills to build something from well thought out plans. Getting raw JBL drivers these days is a pain as you can't just order most of them from JBL anymore. I'm not sure what the project would be. I used to have Everest's 67's and now regret selling them. Should have stored them in my basement.

    John

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    Hi JPW;

    Since Ian went in deep and it wasn’t frowned on by you, I will too.

    When I was a kid we had a JBL shop in our town that had most of the 43XX series on the floor, not all at once but I did get to hear 4343’s, 4345’s and 4350’s and being young I wanted them all. I could not tell you at this point which I might have thought were the most accurate. They were dynamic as hell!

    Later I acquired, in order, a pair of 4350’s, 4365’s, new, and 4333A’s. I also built a pair of kinda 4345’s. I made them 10 cubic feet based on something G Timbers said about the 2245.

    For accuracy, like Widget said, the 4365’s win, but you are talking about vintage 43XX’s.

    I found no real love for the 4333’s, no matter what I did. I revisit these from time to time and always just put them back in the barn.

    The 4345 clones never had passive crossover components but I could never fill an energy gap, between the 2245 and 2123. That may show something missing in my integration chops. I revisit these from time to time and always just put them back away. No matter how well I can get them to measure, I am never happy with them.

    My 3450’s are exactly what Widget describes as cheating. The first fix was replacing the 2202 with TAD 1201M graphite cone drivers. Screwed around with the compression drivers, everything from the original 2440’s through 2450’s with TruExtent beryllium and landed on NOS 2441’s as the winner with the 2405’s.

    Then 1500AL woofers from the Everest family. Four way amplified with DSP. I love them. I still take them out and out back in the open and tweak on the DSP and they just get a little better each time.

    I also have a pair of DD66000’s that have 67000 woofers and crossovers in them, also in the barn.

    Ironically what wins in my living room is the 4365’s with ARRAY1500 subs. Go figure.

    I also have the DIY itch and my loose plan is for some spare AL1500 woofs, 2251 mid woofers, 4338 horns with 2450Sl’s and 2405’s. Hopefully they will supply my dynamics itch.

    Barry.
    If we knew what the hell we were doing, we wouldn't call it research would we.

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    Hi Barry,

    That’s a wonderful story.

    I recommend an LR 12 db 2nd order network @ 300 hertz. These particular networks are -6 db at the crossover point (acoustically in theory). The Q is about 0.50.

    The big win is both drivers sum flat acoustically with revered electrical phase.

    So what you actually hear is the summed response over a much wider crossover region than an BW 18 db filters or a LR 24 db filters. The transition is imperceptible in my experience.

    Give it a try.

    Edit. Only lightly fit the 2123 dog box with stuffing. In 14L it’s already a critically damped sealed enclosure. Adding a dog box full of stuffing behind the driver will over damp the low end and reduce the output.

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