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Thread: I hate to say it but ...

  1. #16
    Roland
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    Guys my wife calls me a black hole because I still have all the stereo systems I ever owned going back to the 70s. Nothing ever leaves.

    I still like and appreciate the new stuff but discontinued my stereophile subscription years ago once I realized that I had been misled in regards to horns and other gear yet "tuning" ebony dots sitting on top of equipment were the rage at $100 a pop!!!. Mostly do DIY stuff now. Most of the old stuff is junk or collectible but some is truly outstanding...you probably know which is which. It just so happen that my system kicks butt and only cost $1K. The point is quality is not always related to price especially when dealing with used gear.

    Yes you can get excellent dynamics like the Grand Slams via brute force amplification but most large SS amps could be better. I prefer to stay with hi efficiency speaker designs and use simple tube high quality amps.

    Subwoofers for 105 dB/W sensitive speakers are always a problem. Have 2 JBL 2445s and will eventually set up as suggested for PA use but have heard them before... typical boomy thumping bass secondary to vented enclosure. The EV 30W is good but don't like the large enclosure. Can do better with multiple woofers in a manifold projecting into the sound room with rear wave going into the attic. These are infinite baffle subwoofers. Check out the "Cult of the infinitively baffled" site for the best in subwoofers. These subwoof drivers are a different design compared to hi efficiency drivers used above. They are designed to tolerate hi power have heavy voice coils and literally inches of cone movement to move the air required for for deep bass. Sub woof bass output is in the watts of power so hi power SS amps with hi damping factors rule. I will probably be using two manifolds of four 15"drivers each with two BGW 750 amps.

    Altec hi efficiency stuff is not perfect but it provides me with a better foundation to work with than anything else I have tried. But I still like the ribbons even if they require biamp or triamp with SS amps. The electrostatics lack ultimate bass and highs are wimpy adynamic but have high resolution. What else is there?? Another magical box full of cone drivers recommended by the mags because they pay for a lot of advertisement....I seen this for over 30 years.....get real!!!

  2. #17
    RIP 2010 scott fitlin's Avatar
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    BGW 750,s

    Great amp for sub bass! Round, warm , definition and all the right things! Great choice!

  3. #18
    Guy L
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    I hav sold my beloved Khorns,few month's ago.
    Got Altec 604E with Mastring Lab crossovers and I don't even miss the Khorns.
    The altec is much more balanced and has much better bass.
    I also own a pair of C50's with S8R and they are also much better than the Khorns.

  4. #19
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Roland,


    Black hole huh? I have sold tons of gear to buy tons of other gear. Where on earth do you live that you have so much storage space?

    A few years ago I owned a pair of Soundlabs electrostats that I powered with a custom built SS amp rated at 300-400 wpc. The speakers with this amp had an awesome sound. Huge, thunderous, fast , dynamic, my complaint was that I didn't like the smeared imaging caused by the backwave. I tried acoustic absorbers which helped, but they never really imaged to my liking. Unfortunately after a couple of years the amp died. I took it back to the designer/builder and he never fixed it. He was a bit of a flake. I tried several other large SS amps but none sounded as good. I have heard other electrostats, Quad, Acoustat, and Martin Logan, I like the sound quality of the Quads, but none of these could adequately reproduce the power and dynamics of "live" music.

    I have never heard the Apogees but I have heard several different brands of 6' or so ribbons in various DIY set ups. They all had some pluses and some minuses. I never heard one I felt like owning.

    You mentioned that Stereophile didn't like horns, well they are coming back into vogue with some reviewers. I remember discussing my strange affection for horns with my audiophile buddies before horns were cool again. They all thought I was nuts. While they are probably right, I must admit, the list of horns I like is much shorter than the list of horns that I dislike.

    I currently listen to horn and non horn systems depending on my mood and/or the music I intend to listen to.

  5. #20
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    "I hav sold my beloved Khorns,few month's ago.
    Got Altec 604E with Mastring Lab crossovers and I don't even miss the Khorns.
    The altec is much more balanced and has much better bass.
    I also own a pair of C50's with S8R and they are also much better than the Khorns."

    Post that on the Klipsch site and see if you leave with any skin on your body!


  6. #21
    Guy L
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    Originally posted by Mr. Widget "

    Post that on the Klipsch site and see if you leave with any skin on your body!

    [/B]
    I still like the guys over there.
    I was the first one on their forum, who've changed the lousy type AA crossover and rebuilt it to the very simple 6DB/octave type A (like the one that PWK prefered).

    I have done it,after listening to the 375 midrange and hearing "new" things on almost every recording.It did improve things dramaticly,but the mids still could'nt be compared to the 375.

  7. #22
    Roland
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    Guys there are many ways to Audio Nirvana. Just like you would not keep an elephant as a pet in an apartment you should not put an Altec A4, 210, or even A7. The right speaker in the right room is the rule. I always try for high efficiency if possible. It gives more freedom to use intrinsically higher quality smaller amps and why star out with dynamic compression anyway??

    We all know the intrinsic advantages of horns but also 90% of them suck....so you must pick right. Round tractrix horns sound natural but are beamy and the mouth area overestimates cut off freq.

    Hi efficiency via hi eff ribbons is also cool ie: ESG tweeters with 8-12" MR make a great speaker. BUT no matter what I still find you need al least three drivers for full 20-20k coverage. A dedicated sub with hi power voice coil and large cone excursion is a must to reach the 20Hz if you want it. That combination of subwoof, 8-12"MR, tweeter ie: ESG ribbon kicks butt in a smaller setting.

    My first Hifi speaker which I still have was the ESS transtatic circa 1970. Back then ESS was making custom speakers using combinations of the best technologies. It had a KEF B139 oval woofer in transmission line which went flat to 20Hz. The tweeters were the RTR electrostatics x3 and MR was a KEF 5". I subsequently replaced the MR with a higher resolution focal unit. This speaker will still out perform 95% of speakers out there. By the way Carver's Phase linear 400 and 700 amps had just come out and Hafler's Dynaco 400 also. These were the first hi powered SS amps available and started the shift to low efficiency speakers like those Bose pentagonal ones.

    Yes Scott the BGW 750 can drive four 15" easily whereas some other "higher" powered amps can not. Has to do with stored energy in the power supply transformer and caps and enough output transistors. I replaced the filter caps and quadrupled the capacity....will make a difference in subwoof use!!

    Although I can afford expensive audio equipment I get more satisfaction via equalling or surpassing that quality via DIY when possible.

    Yes Mr Widget in regards to the black hole and where I keep all this gear. Some day I will be crushed to death by collapse of the overtaxed attic...Seems an appropiate way to go!!

  8. #23
    stpower
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    A ludricris footprint? I say just a large box. Look at the typical high-end speaker setup; a couple mini monitors on silly looking stands. Recommended placement 2 or 3 feet from front and side walls. How much footprint do we have being used here? I would much rather look and listen to a pair of A7-500W-1 "Magnificent" in my living room than a pair of small bird houses.

    stpower

  9. #24
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    "Look at the typical high-end speaker setup; a couple mini monitors on silly looking stands."

    Hey! That is what I have in the living room. My wife will allow my slightly larger than shoe box sized speakers in the living room even though I insist on putting them "In the middle of the room." but there is no way in hell she would let me put my "big ugly horns" in the living room.

  10. #25
    Charley Rummel
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    Yes, Mr. Widget, I too have been advised by my wife that my horn systems are not welcome in our living room ("...I don't want those big ugly things in MY living room!!!") , and hence forth they reside in our basement family room - which works out well.

    The Wife Acceptance Factor is a big issue which a lot of us must contend with...

    Regards,
    Charley

  11. #26
    RIP 2010 scott fitlin's Avatar
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    My fav BGW!

    One of my personal favorites from BGW is their GTA amp. put 2 four ohm 18,s per channel and its got that MOOSE bottom and its sooo clean. Yeah, I know some of you are gonna say 2 ohms! But it works.

  12. #27
    Tom Loizeaux
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    I have learned that there is a strong subjective componant is responding to sound.
    I have a pair of Altec Valencias in my living room. They use the 416 woofer, 806 driver and 811 sectorial horn. They do project and have nice transiants, but the thing I love about them is that they are classic designs that show that Altec's engineers' got it right! It makes me smile when I hear that "primative" 2 way system sound so good.
    When I go down to my basement studio and listen to my bi-amped JBL studio monitors, either the 3-ways, or my newly aquired 4-way 4343, I have to tell you that these let me hear what's on the recording. More low bass, cean, clear mids, high frequencies that go beyond my ear's abilities. Though my JBL's are more modern then the Altecs, they are examples of top quality engineering and pro quality materials and construction that is hard to find today.
    The Altecs are impressive for being so simple, but the JBLs deliver a sonic experience that I have never heard in any other speaker.

    Tom

  13. #28
    Todd W. White
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    These discussions are not new - in fact, they go back over 50 years to the battles between Edgar Villchur and his crowd and the high efficiency (aka Altec) crowd.

    Alexis Badmaeff wrote an article about it entitled, as I recall, "Is A Good Big Speaker Better Than The Best Small Speaker?" Villchur also replied, and they published it, too.

    In short, Badmaeff excoriates the ideas that Villchur and the AR-type system proponents touted - you ought to see it, it is fabulous!

    I have this article buried somewhere in the vault - I'll try to dig it out next week, scan it, and put it on my website.

    I'll let you folks know when I get it done...

  14. #29
    RIP 2010 scott fitlin's Avatar
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    so true

    Back in the middle to late 70,s when my dad and my uncle were experimenting with different brands and types of speakers almost ALL of the salespeople and engineers that werent Altec dealers tried to tell them to go for better boxes ( direct radiator ) and more power! And every time they would bring stuff in here to demo, the Honky, nasal, beamy horn loaded stuff always won!

    And Dad ALWAYS brought ME whenever there was an audition of this type! I was in my early teens, and If I heard something I liked better I didnt care cause I didnt have to spend the money! dad did! But the Altec VOTT and JBL lens horns and tweeters always seemed to be more present and alive! It wasnt just SPL, the Altec presented the music in a way that is believable! The ported boxes didnt have the same LARGER THAN LIFE OMG it SOUNDS SO REAL type of sound! And as much as this gear has a bad rap it didnt sound Honky, nasal or un- natural at all! Of course
    to be fair we did EQ the room! But we would and still do have to do this with whatever i am using! But the sound was always the opposite of what the salespeople kept saying! Oh those Altec 421,s! they cant take any power! But we had plenty of level and more if we wanted it! But the ported boxes didnt throw as far into the room, and DID NOT have the same lower mid response as the VOTT horns! And this is exactly where the Altecs blew everything else away! Yeah, you could shove more power into the ported boxes with double 15,s and get down a little lower in frequency! But for this you traded in your drumfills leaping out into the room, just like a real concert! And the keyboards and vocals didnt have that " shes right here in the room In front of me " effect! Add to which, the Altec,s with their meager 150w per driver power ratings seemed to actually produce MORE sound than the ported boxes with 600w per two 15 inch drivers! A pair of 817,s on 1 crown dc-300A made BETTER mid bass than a pair of ported boxes with JBL 2225,s and a BGW 750 in this room! The Altec VOTT had MORE presence!

    So, unless it really DID do something better I would always choose what we had! And I loved to get NEW stuff to play with. But I knew the stuff we have sounded special!

    BTW, music really lives in the midrange, so if you dont get the critical midband right nothing else really matters! I do mean to say, I dont care how great the bass is, or how extended the highs, the midband both lower and upper MUST be right in order for everything to come together! And Altec got this right a LONG time ago!

    Where it DID in fact get better was in adding subwoofers and supertweeters! Then the horns didnt have to work as hard, played easier and the whole room came together as the monster it still is!

    And my Dad had a pair of the famed AR-3a speakers! In 1980 he got a BIG pair of JBL L-300,s and me and Dad loved the shit out of them! Mom prefered the old AR,s but she didnt like the bass from the JBL,s! Me and dad did, though! So, I knew the AR sound as well! It was ok, but it didnt light up the room like them JBL,s my Mom hated! She said once, it wasnt so much the sound of them as the size of them that offended her!
    Last edited by scott fitlin; 04-26-2003 at 05:00 PM.

  15. #30
    BigBusa
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    hey roland

    Speaking of duettas, Look what I picked up yesterday!


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