The seeming demise of JBL OEM parts... and the subsequent devaluation of a brand?

[boputnam]

from Scott Fitlin:

my ears seem to prefer traditional sounding, well made components!

"Bingo"!!, my friend. And that is why we are all here, me thinks.

My otherwise-engaged friends cannot grasp my affliction, until they come over and visit. And then...

First, was the near wretched Altec Corona's, then refitted with the LE8T's and LE20's which brought a humble "oh my god" from the wifey who hadn't lived with them since 1974 and didn't share my cabinet loyalty...

Then were the completely refurbished Lancer 44's and Lancer 77's that simply "wow"d any who stopped by the shop and saw their father's speakers rockin...

Second, the L26's refitted with the LE10A's featured. "Oh my god" was the response of the poor soul who gave me the cabinets (sans the blown LF's) otherwise headed for the rubbish tip.

Third, were the veritable 4312 L/R refitted with the 128H's - thanks to Giskard - which won a "oh my god" from mixed couples...

Fourth, were the 4313B's with the resurround LE10H's (and with cabinet polarity reversed and duly noted on the rear, per martinleewin's rant...), and paired with the 4312 L/R's wrought an "oh my god" from even me...

Fifth, are the "oh my god" cabinets, the 4345's, which I will re-spec to factory, and then can only hope to look after for so long as I can hear.

... they completely get it, but have no basis to start from.

This appreciation has to be rooted in a willingness to just listen to music, without visual stimulation. A willingness that most seem to have lost along the way.

The incorporation of visual inputs masks, to a degree, the need for the definition and imaging we here seek. Processors make-up for the need for true, highest quality in audio gear. IMO, ironically, surround-sound systems benefit mediocre quality audio gear more than highest quality audio gear benefits surround-sound systems to the "average" user. I visit many homes where some lastest tech processor is wanking the sound of an otherwise unworthy audio system into something where I really cannot hear what is going on, and over-amped subwoofers (hopelessly attempting to obviate the need for real speaker cabinets...) are muddier than the mighty Mississippi. I (not so subtly...) switch the processor off, to "stereo", and "poof", man, the mystique vaporizes - "there is nothing behind the curtain, Dorothy". But, it is working.

Regretably, for us who hope to sustain the quality scott fitlin refers to, you simply can get to an acceptible audio-visual result with so much less effort than we go through. Not being a martyr, but few appreciate the need to start with audio, perfect it, and then work to incorporate it into the audio-visual experience. That is hard.

OK, soap box is now being relinquished to the next sordid soul. As Reginald Gardiner would say: "Nurse, I'm ready...

[DavidF]

JBL does cater to a select, brand and quality conscious following in Asia where the designs of the recent-past are the preferred instruments. Seems that the price to support this activity is quite high and no doubt the margins are higher than market should bear, but it indicates to me the cost of catering to a small niche of buyers. Could it also be possible that as we move further away from the '60s and '70s, the number of "survivors" still singing away is simply diminshing to the point that it does not make sense to preserve and maintain the tooling necessary for a huge catalog of replacement parts.

Davidf

[GordonW]

To expand on Bo's last post above...

... yeah, video DOES do a lot to temporarily (IMHO and IME) mask sonic errors.

That said... HOWEVER... Ive noticed a real phenomenon, that happens when you show someone a home theater system, made up of REAL speakers, configured for REAL sound. It's the "oh my god" thing, there as well.

I work at a Tannoy dealer, and believe it or not, one of our BIGGEST sellers in the last 3 years, is one of the possibly most politically incorrect speakers imaginable... the Saturn 10. DUAL 10" DRIVERS... one a dual concentric, the other a dedicated woofer, in a cabinet that stands just nigh of 4 FEET TALL. And we sold them in SPADES!

The really interesting cases, were like the one where a family came in, looking to outfit their new downstairs "media room" with speakers. The way the room was designed, there was absolutely NO problem fitting any speaker of ANY size... but when we started the demo, you could tell... the "brainwashing" was there... the wife had this distressed look, as the husband started looking at large floorstanders. "Why not the cubes"? was the inherent unspoken question, I'm sure. HOWEVER... at one point in the demo, Pete, the store owner, put on the Saturn 10s, playing a track by Ronnie Earl and the Broadcasters (kick-butt blues band from Boston... the track used was "Rego Park Blues" for those who've heard him), which featured a very quiet guitar intro, followed by a WICKED snare roll, which just sort of BAM, there it is. When the snare kicked in, the wife and son both JUMPED in thier seats... and the wife got this huge grin on her face, and said, "THAT'S the speaker I want. That sounded REAL!!".

Another poor soul saved from the curse of mediocre audio...

In short, I don't think the real music-enthusiast-audio-lovers are dying off, never to be replaced... there's just HUGE numbers of them out there, that just don't KNOW they're them, yet! It's amazing to see, when it happens... the sight of a 18 year old going nuts for a big 4-way Marantz speaker from the 1970s, because it just rocked his world, for one example I've seen personally. It's like that GMC Truck commercial: "it's not more than you NEED... just more than you EXPECTED..."

Regards,
Gordon.

[scott fitlin]

Quality goods built for long term reliability and use still do exist. Harman hasnt bought up everybody. Companys like Bryston and TAD, A & H still manufacture audio gear that holds up, sounds great and is serviceable long after the purchase date.

Good stuff costs big money, and is worth it if you can afford.

My problem with todays principles in audio are when a company stops making a favorite product and they recommend their latest gear, you go out and buy, install, and get angry when not only does your new purchase not sound at least as good as your old stuff, it sounds worse.

It amazes me that Vintage JBL sounds so good and so many seek out vintage JBL, and current JBL doesnt live up to its namesake!

Maybe I do live in the past, but the past sounds really good, sonically! When the future sounds as good to me I will jump into it!

I may get castrated for saying this, but JBL today doesnt sound like JBL yesterday! Matter of fact, there are NEW JBL products that I distinctly DO NOT like the sound of!

So Harman has it corporate ways and mentality! And I have freedom of choice. And I just used this freedom of choice by purchasing 6 new TAD 4002 compression drivers INSTEAD of 6 JBL 2450 compression drivers! Hello Harman .

[Mr. Widget]

Come on guys, I am bummed that JBL isn't an altruistic mom and pop business too, but heck, they still support many more of their products than anyone I can think of in any industry.

You can still get repair parts for many of JBL's most popular speakers from the early 60's. LE15As, D130s, 075s... they are all still supported. I would say that being able to get factory replacement parts for a 40 year old product is pretty damn cool!

Try calling GM or Ford and ordering a factory made seat for a 10 year old car!

[scott fitlin]

You do make a good point, Mr. Widget!

[GordonW]

Well, to put my point in a nutshell:

The primary REASON JBL has historically been SO interesting for many people, has been their willingness to support even 40 year old speakers. THIS was a REAL market differentiation- that made JBL products worth more, to many people, than other brands that might have been otherwise engineered and built as well.

Take that support away, and to most people, JBL will be "just another speaker brand"... and as I said before, given the advances in technology in MANY speaker companies these days, I might as well build around Eminince or other "generic" stuff, rather than pay the premium for JBL, knowing that they may be just as hard to repair as anyone else's speaker...

It's all about value...

Regards,
Gordon.

[PSS AUDIO]

Originally posted by scott fitlin
Every once famous brand Harman bought up, no longer is anything like the brands they originally were, except for the logos!

I do agree with you and once again I will speak about CROWN, also known in Europe and Asia as AMCRON.

Since CROWN was bought by Harman, they launch each year a new amplifier, always better that the previous one.

Was the previous one that bad that they had to correct the product with a new one and same each year?

They are just doing some money with the name nothing more!

Just test the following: buy one of those (same for a lot of others co called big brands), remove the logo, place an unknown name on it and never or very hardly will you sell it with the same arguments printed with the original brand, as one will reply you this is jus advertising numbers and speech.

Products are sold on the name, not for the product.

Just a pity.

But what gives me hope is that dinosaurs already disappeared once from earth!

[scott fitlin]

Yuri, that is something that started in the 90,s! I know an engineer who uses Harman exclusively for the systems he designs. And every year whatever new products Harman has out he will tell you is THE only thing to use now! And then you get the lecture about how what your using is now OBSOLETE! Then you say, But I just got it LAST year!

As I have said before, I dont always agree with Harman. And this is a major point with me! Im sorry but buying JBL USED to mean you were buying the best and you only had to buy it ONCE! I dont want to hear this crap about buying new stuff every two years because the stuff from 2 years ago is obsolete!

Im not exactly sure this way of doing buisiness is actually working for JBL, either. In the Nightclub world, EAW is outselling JBL by plenty. Where you once saw ONLY JBL you are now seeing EAW,s Avalon series!

Mobile DJ,s are buying Mackie or Yorkville self powered speakers. Not JBL Eons! If you ask someone why they bought Mackie over JBL they will tell you they like this better! Home Hi-Fi consumers that used to buy big JBL speakers, now buy big B & W speakers!

CROWN! You know, Crown used to be a good investment. Great reliability and great sound! And Crown from way back when are still around and operating and sounding good! Now it seems like they make amps for about 3 years of use and then throw em away! Everyone I know who bought the CE series has had problems with them! How do you take a legendary company like crown and use them to make disposable gear? It aint right!

I know companies are in buisiness to sell product and earn profit, but the Audio industry could learn a lesson from the Auto industry! remember when Detroit RULED? remeber when a Cadillac was THEE car? Remeber when American cars were the best? Remeber how ALL the Famous brands like Chevy and Cadillac got swallowed up by GM? Remember when these brands did what the audio companies are doing now? Remember how Detroit Auto makers thought they were invincible and could pass off whatever they wanted to on the American Public? Remember the 80,s when Import cars really started OUTSELLING American cars? Remember how Detroit almost went out of buisiness?

And today you see far more BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Infiniti, Toyota, Honda, etc, then you do American cars! When I was a kid, the Caddy was the Premium automobile. Mercedes holds the title to Cadillacs former position!

People got tired of low quality build and inferior products and started spending their money elswhere. I know many audio professionals, end users and hobbyists who say the same things I do, and after having been burned with NEW but INFERIOR products, have subsequently switched brand loyalty!

[PSS AUDIO]

Originally posted by scott fitlin


I know companies are in buisiness to sell product and earn profit, but the Audio industry could learn a lesson from the Auto industry! remember when Detroit RULED? remeber when a Cadillac was THEE car? Remeber when American cars were the best? Remeber how ALL the Famous brands like Chevy and Cadillac got swallowed up by GM? Remember when these brands did what the audio companies are doing now? Remember how Detroit Auto makers thought they were invincible and could pass off whatever they wanted to on the American Public? Remember the 80,s when Import cars really started OUTSELLING American cars? Remember how Detroit almost went out of buisiness?

Scott,

Remember when ... the Platters!

I 1000% agree with you, even if I am not native from the states …

Some audio companies, aware of such a come back, even copies the look and feel. I don’t think people are looking for such a look, as they want a real audio quality and reliability.

I am very pleased reading that CE amplifiers are not rock solid as customers are looking for such amplifier with a real sound quality, not a boum boom fizz sound!

In the next decade will survive:

Monsters as HARMAN and out of their catalogue will disappear several brands; only very well known and well-marketed brands will exist for mass market only,

And medium companies, as mine (I hope so - no I do not hope as I am 1000% confident), offering REAL quality, and quite luxurious but with no bla bla bla.

Lets speak about it in 2013!

[scott fitlin]

I am one of those unfortunate, misled souls who still uses my EARS as the final, and most influential way of making my decisions!

I have been told by some to stop using my ears and start reading the specs!

I did that ONCE!

I wont ever do it again!

Music and Audio are part of my buisiness and I like my music and audio to be spectacular!

But I also LISTEN to what I play and listen to my system, too!

Hi, Im Sy Sperling! Im not only the president of the Hair Club for Men, Im also a Member!

[GordonW]

The thing is, a company like Harman, especially with Sidney Harman at the helm, should KNOW better than to play the "name game"... this thing has happened BEFORE!

History is indeed repeating itself... it's like the mass buyout/whoreout of the 1970s all over again. Look at Advent! Look at Acoustic Research, look at Fisher, Jensen and KLH! What all of these companies have in common, was that they ONCE were GREAT names in the industry, but were bought out by (or themselves became) mass-market "box-mover" commodity companies, which THOUGHT that people would buy cheap, uninspiringly built, otherwise generic products, indefinitely, just for the name. And BOY did many of them LOSE THEiR BUTTS. AR has been through 2-3 different buyout/restructurings since 1980, probably the same for Advent and KLH... and with the bankruptcy of Recoton Corp., Advent, Jensen and AR are BACK in receivership, in all practical senses, RIGHT NOW!

I wonder just exactly how Harman thinks they're gonna be immune from the laws of nature in the market, as has been demonstrated by the above companies??

Regards,
Gordon.

[4313B]

Here are some pages that might be interesting:

http://www.harman.com/profiles/index.jsp?articleId=30

http://www.harman.com/profiles/index.jsp?articleId=52

http://www.harman.com/profiles/index.jsp?articleId=67

[PSS AUDIO]

Originally posted by GordonW
The thing is, a company like Harman, especially with Sidney Harman at the helm, should KNOW better than to play the "name game"... this thing has happened BEFORE!

......

I wonder just exactly how Harman thinks they're gonna be immune from the laws of nature in the market, as has been demonstrated by the above companies?

Human being is very short minded and never remembers lessons from the past!

He always thinks he is more intelligent than his neighbour, and what happened never will occur in his situation.

History always repeats itself…

A company must grow, but as we are in quite a small market (audio pro) never can you make volume.

I do prefer eat a good steak the 5 hamburgers.

It is better to be the number one in the studio market with a reasonable benefit than selling paper boxes with some speakers making some noise in it with such a little margin that they must be put together (not built as it is to complicate to have something well built) in the far east at millions of persons.

As I always said, it is not because hamburgers are eaten by million that it is good to eat!

[scott fitlin]

Originally posted by GordonW
The thing is, a company like Harman, especially with Sidney Harman at the helm, should KNOW better than to play the "name game"... this thing has happened BEFORE!

History is indeed repeating itself... it's like the mass buyout/whoreout of the 1970s all over again. Look at Advent! Look at Acoustic Research, look at Fisher, Jensen and KLH! What all of these companies have in common, was that they ONCE were GREAT names in the industry, but were bought out by (or themselves became) mass-market "box-mover" commodity companies, which THOUGHT that people would buy cheap, uninspiringly built, otherwise generic products, indefinitely, just for the name. And BOY did many of them LOSE THEiR BUTTS. AR has been through 2-3 different buyout/restructurings since 1980, probably the same for Advent and KLH... and with the bankruptcy of Recoton Corp., Advent, Jensen and AR are BACK in receivership, in all practical senses, RIGHT NOW!

I wonder just exactly how Harman thinks they're gonna be immune from the laws of nature in the market, as has been demonstrated by the above companies??

Regards,
Gordon.

They arent immune! But, as always, they will have to learn the HARD WAY! Years ago, almost every studio had Urei time align monitors or JBL monitors, or Altec 604,s. and JBL or Urei power amps! Crowns were also used. These days studios use alot of Genelec and Dynaudio, as well as other brands, but not so much JBL. And where power is concerned, Bryston has made its way into SO many studios!

As I said earlier in this thread, EAW is selling MUCH product when it comes to Dance Clubs!

Mackie, Peavey, and Yorkville are dominating the mobile scene with portable products that this market wants.

Some of the BIG tour and rental companies arent 100% satisfied with JBL, these days!

I dont think JBL will ( Harman ) will go out of buisiness, but I do think they need to start taking a harder look at things, and change accordingly. I suspect this may happen, as they are, indeed, very aware of other brands that have taken over sales of products that formerly was the territory of JBL exclusively!

Of course, on the other hand, IF they WONT wake up, they will lose! People are tired of low build quality, and products that dont live up to their claims and expectations!

:shock: