Le85

[yggdrasil]

I have a pair of LE85 in my DIY's. The other day I had to open them up and found phenolic diaphragms.

Shall the LE85 have phenolic diaphragms?

What is the pro version of LE85?

[Mr. Widget]

Those are probably 2470 diaphragms. The LE85 should have an aluminum diaphragm with a smooth surround which is the same as the pro 2420. The current replacement diaphragms are from the 2421B which has an aluminum diaphragm and diamond pattern surround.(This is considered an upgrade and is quite costly.) You can also use a titanium diaphragm with diamond surround. I personally don't like the titanium diaphragms but others prefer them and they are the most cost effective replacement.

Widget

[John]

Widget is right about the Diaphram. The 2461 + 2470 used the same one. Since your system is a four way you might like the phenolic diaphram better,before you invest in aluminum dia. I would see if you can borrow a pair of drivers with the aluminum dia. for a taste test. I am running a pair of phenolic's in a three way. 2215-2461-2405 and the sound is all there,nothing missing and surpasses my Altec 19's in tightness and warmth. By the way in the next few weeks I am going to do a taste test my self with a pair of 2420's with 2421 dia. in them. This will simply be a test done with my ears and a brew,will report my findings.

[Mr. Widget]

The brew will most certainly be the most critical part of your "taste test".


Widget

[Mr. Widget]

Actually all kidding aside, I haven't done this comparison myself and will look forward to your thoughts. While listening focus on detail resolution. While the tonality (frequency response) may be equally good or better? with the phenolic, due to it's greater mass I would expect the resolving power to be less. I base this on my comparisons between aluminum and beryllium. The lighter material while having a similar frequency response is able to reproduce nuance that the more massive diaphragm can not.

Widget

[John]

Yes I will do my best,one day soon I think I will take it to the next level and get some test equipment. Oh and some would agree the brew can be considered testing equipment

[yggdrasil]

Thanks a lot.


One of the reasons why I started wondering about this is that I am working on a smaller project with Altec 806-8 on Altec 811 horns. They have more details.

Also I get the feeling that the vocalist is unwilling to come out on the floor to sing to me, at least compared to the Altec's.

BTW are there a place on the internet where one can order original replacement diaphragms?

[JBLGUY]

I have found that the linen dia.'s sound nicer than some of the aluminum or titanium. But then I don't drive them that high. I use a ribbon driver for above 5k and a 375 driver from 800-5 k. But down lower the linen outshines the others IMHO


Last weekend we tested a 2485 against 2441 against 2445 and the 2485 sounded the best with the 2441 second and the 2445 definatly last.

[Mr. Widget]

What frequency range were you comparing the phenolic, aluminum and titanium drivers over?

I have found that comparing the aluminum 2441 against the TAD 4001 beryllium both operating on the same horn from 800Hz up the tonality was very similar but the "inner detail" (to use one of those Stereophile type terms) was significantly improved with the beryllium. I certainly agree with your opinion of the titanium driver. I think the titanium drivers seem harsh and bright. My guess is that this is due to their higher distortion content.

Widget

[yggdrasil]

I found aluminum diaphragms on speakerrepair.com at $244 a piece. They are not considered at this time. Found some aftermarket diaphragms at $35 which I consider just to hear the difference.

The LE85's play 1200Hz to 7000Hz.

I use a lot of time thinking about what can be approved in this and my other projects. Other factors I am wondering about are: Can there be a phasing problem causing this? Would another horn construction change this(tractrix / smith)?

[Steve Gonzales]

I do have LE85's with phenolic and some with original aluminum and some 2420's with original aluminum in my set-up and I've found that if you cross the phenolic's over at 5k, they sound just fine. They do have a wonderful sound with the human voice. What Mr Widget says about them is true to a certain extent. In a WIDE range A-B test, there is a marked difference in detail but as I said, it is dependent on how high you ask them to play. So there is truth in JBLGUY's opinion too. Oh, I've got to add the requisite IMHO. Their problem is with the MASS due to the limits of trying to get that much weight to move more than say 5000 times per second. You would be suprised to know how much and how soon "break-up" occurs with different materials. If you can use them within and not over that point, you're good to go. There is also the "taste" factor. What sounds great to one person doesn't always even sound good to another.

[JBLGUY]

Hi Mr Widget

We were primarily comparing the lower range of Freqs. Like from 300hz to the 2000hz range. We were testing all of the drivers in some Large wood horns that my buddy sells. I left him with my 2485J linen unit after our afternoon of comparing and he then tested it further and reported days later that he liked the sound of these so much better at the lower freqs. The 2485j has to have other units take over for it up higher. We didn't really concentrate of the stuff above 2000hz , but the 2485J would be a very bad full range unit as it only really goes to 6k and not very well at that. It is stricky IMHO only good for the lower mids......but for that it is great
When I was there the 2485J sounded much better than the 2445. I didn't really like it much at all. Of course the 2485 is JBL's speech range unit. But if crossed over under a 1000hz it sounds very nice. Very subtle and unobtrusive.
In my system I use it from 300-800hz then feed into 375 model till 5k. Then my Stage Accompany Ribbon drivers do the rest.

They are not shown in my Avatar. I will post a thread on them later.

Widget your dry humor is great and I love the subtl quips and jabs...very clever you are at times

Have a great day or night.

Hey Steve, how are you enjoying the big slant plates 2395's

I love mine

Thanks

[Steve Gonzales]

I LOVE EM'. I think we are on the same page with the phenolic's. I was disappointed to see them in my first pair of LE85's until I LISTENED to them with a H92 crossed over at 5k. WONDERFUL with the female singing voice especially.

[Mr. Widget]

I don't have any first hand experience with the 2482-2485 running through a large horn from 300Hz to 1KHz, but I can imagine that it would be very nice indeed. It brings up two issues in my mind. The first is purely aesthetic, forget WAF, I really don't want to be intruded upon by that much speaker even in a dedicated listening room... my opinion is subject to change and I can just see myself setting up some 400lb monsters at some point in the future.

The second issue is one I have been musing over for quite some time. It gets back to, "What is our fundamental goal in audio reproduction.?"

Certainly if I want to hear the most faithful production of Michael Tilson Thomas conducting the San Francisco Symphony, I should walk the 6 or 7 blocks from my house to Davies Symphony Hall and listen to the real deal. Obviously this becomes more problematic if I want to listen to Jim Morrison fronting the Doors. But the real question to me becomes, "Are we trying to create a hologram of the band in our listening room, recreate what the mixing engineer heard at the console, recreate what the artist's intention was, or what?"

Depending on the recording, there are quite a few "Audiophile" systems out there that do a pretty good job of creating the acoustic hologram. Very few also have the dynamics of a well thought out horn system, but there are some out there that do both. On the other end of the spectrum are the primarily DIY rigs that have many horns scattered about the front of the room each covering a narrow band of frequencies. These systems typically have amazing dynamics and if done well can have a very natural timbral balance. They typically have a large diffuse sound that in many ways more closely resembles going to hear live music. (In my experience I have never been to a performance where with closed eyes you could see the singer in the center of the stage etc.)

So the question is, "Do we want to recreate the sonic hologram that was engineered into the recording or are we after a sound that is more like hearing live music performed in a venue?" We will never get the London Philharmonic Orchestra into our listening rooms so short of only listening to soloists what do we choose?

Personally, while I do regard the holographic representation of music as primarily a "special effect" it is very cool and it can be quite startling. (I know people who prefer to listen only with headphones as they like the band to be in their heads... that is a bit to psychedelic for my taste.) I am willing to sacrifice this holographic effect a bit for the dynamics but I am not yet willing to give it up entirely.

Widget

[Mr. Widget]

How the hell did we get here from a pair of mis-diaphragmed LE85s?


Widget