Sean Olive Interview

[Ian Mackenzie]

Hello Ian

I think it's a step in the right direction. The last interface we all have to deal with, and in many cases live with, is what actually happens in our listening rooms. No amount of anechoic or quasi anechoic is going to predict what's going to happen there.

That will never change. Not going to address DSP based systems that can ping the room and adjust accordingly. Sticking to passive systems or actives without adjustable DSP.

Spinorama allows us to get an accurate DI curve. I think the DI curve is important WRT predictability of room interaction but it can't directly address where the room dominates.

It's a mixed bag.

Rob

I agree in that measurement approaches have advanced. To my mind it needs simplifying down from to how well a loudspeaker translates to a nirvana experience of a tune at home. It’s the inverse of what happens in the mixing and mastering of a tune. The recording engineer is only interested in how well it translates. Thats their terminology and l think it’s a good way of understanding a loudspeaker.

But in terms understanding what to measure and how to interpret it all and then applying it correctly is beyond any mortal music lover or HiFi enthusiast. For the average consumer and even a seasoned amateur loudspeaker builder it’s quite complicated with lots of variables and can end up being a snake chasing its tail for way too long.

So if the loudspeaker system translates what you like with the tunes you like to play that’s all that really matters.

Continued in my next post

[Ian Mackenzie]

Continuing from my last post -:

This whole business of measurements reminds me of the measurement race between amplifier brands back in the 1970’s. As we know what they were doing wasn’t well enough understood and it lead to a lot of controversy. The manufacturers then moved away from that approach to marketing. They got better and designing and manufacturing and we now have better amplifiers. It’s the same with PC’s. No body thinks about what CPU is in a PC these days. If you’re a hard core gamer it might be a consideration.

I think people can get too wrapped up in focusing on one facet of sound reproduction like imaging for example. Or they think they need everything perfectly correct and loose sight of what makes them really happy in their listening experiences. For example if they play genres like heavy rock, metal and so on then to translate correctly without too many errors the bass, the tonal balance, dynamics and the overall output has to competent. It also has to be resilient and reliable as a system.

That’s what drives the emotion connection. Does it need razor sharp imaging. Not at the expense of the other key attributes. The laws of Mother Nature always prevail.

This is where a well appraised subjective review that points to a particular recording is useful. The reviewer is translating to you their subjective listening experience.,Not all consumer reviews publish measurements. A well prepared consumer review is useful if your only option is to buy a system sight unseen.

On the other hand if you’re more interested in vintage analogue two mic recordings of a symphony orchestra then the translation of musical instruments as images with minimal errors is going to be key to your emotional enjoyment along with other key attributes.

But if you say l need a loudspeaker that translates imaging without too many errors then you need to understand what types of recordings and which genres are going to be translated? In other words the music lover has the responsibility to understand what it is they need in the translation and what types of recording are going to deliver that.

Popularising by media of a particular topic is a natural occurrence. But it isn’t necessarily a good thing if you don’t actually understand what’s important to you.

I’ve changed the narrative in this post because l believe there needs to be holistic understanding of the subject in order to make sense what you need out of the listening experience and the hobby.

[Robh3606]

Hi Rob,

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I agree it is a mixed bag. I was purely looking at JBL Consumer on market share.

I appreciate your love of Revel. But like many l am not backwards compatible after living with 15” system for 40 years.

Hello Ian

Thanks WRT Revel and 15" drivers?

Rob

[Ian Mackenzie]

Efficiency + Displacement = Bigger more real listening experience

[DerekTheGreat]

...like many l am not backwards compatible after living with 15” system for 40 years.

Efficiency + Displacement = Bigger more real listening experience

I too am no longer backwards compatible with small systems. Before the 813C's, I had only heard smaller format systems, typically a bookshelf two or three-way with a 6" or 8" driver with maybe a 10" subwoofer to compliment it. For nearly two decades, that was the standard I chased in pursuit of audio nirvana. The 813 took me by complete surprise. Now that I've lived with them, I'd never [willingly] go back. They've ruined every system I thought was good. I'm also a coax fan now too. I can't describe the difference in technical terms, but more life-like is what comes to mind. I'm listening to acts like Catie Curtis and Ani DiFranco just because I now appreciate their material's presentation out of the 813C's, whereas before I'd never actively listen to that stuff.

[Robh3606]

I too am no longer backwards compatible with small systems. Before the 813C's, I had only heard smaller format systems, typically a bookshelf two or three-way with a 6" or 8" driver with maybe a 10" subwoofer to compliment it. For nearly two decades, that was the standard I chased in pursuit of audio nirvana. The 813 took me by complete surprise. Now that I've lived with them, I'd never [willingly] go back. They've ruined every system I thought was good. I'm also a coax fan now too. I can't describe the difference in technical terms, but more life-like is what comes to mind. I'm listening to acts like Catie Curtis and Ani DiFranco just because I now appreciate their material's presentation out of the 813C's, whereas before I'd never actively listen to that stuff.

Hello Derek

Yeah it's odd the jump with 15" drivers. I have the same bass drivers as the your 813C in my active 4 way system E-145 and 2235's. They make a very nice combo with the snap of the E-145's and the weight of the 2235.

So it's a different sound for sure more tactile more energy in the room best way I can describe it.

Smaller systems have their place. I could never fit 15's in my livingroom where my Revels are. Even then they have a sub to do the "heavy lifting" which helps.

Rob

[Ian Mackenzie]

Hi Rob,

That makes a lot of sense. Glad you elaborated. There is no one size fits all. Not really.

Its really useful to understand how people approach the practicality of setting up a System. It simplifies the whole gamut of determining our loudspeaker needs on paper from an information gathering perspective.

There’s no point looking for the world if it won’t work correctly in your situation. All the global polar plots, consumer reviews and YouTube vids won’t describe your situation or your listening needs (as l outlined above).

That as one YouTube influencer said is purely for your entertainment. The truth is they aren’t doing it for you. They are making money on your subscription. It makes even less sense to take all that information and start debating it on a Forum attempting to reach a consensus. There’s no need for it. Opinions soon dissolve into facts and practical decisions once you apply your situation and your listening needs.

I’m not going to enter into discussions on Uber hi end components (mens jewellery).

The key is being self aware of your needs and what’s going to work in your situation. This cuts through all the noise floating around cyberspace.

If you can have two separate systems like Rob that’s a great way of accommodating different listeners needs. This can be then simplified down to some realistic and practical decisions. Yes there will be some compromises but they won’t significantly impact on your particular listening needs.

Let’s not forget that there are some work arounds like adding a sub(s) to fill out the bottom end of compact main loudspeakers. This take the load (heat dissipation) off the main system woofer voices and they perform like a more dynamic system. Heat buildup in a voice coil is the enemy of you aspire to life like sound reproduction.

[DerekTheGreat]

Hello Derek

Yeah it's odd the jump with 15" drivers. I have the same bass drivers as the your 813C in my active 4 way system E-145 and 2235's. They make a very nice combo with the snap of the E-145's and the weight of the 2235.

So it's a different sound for sure more tactile more energy in the room best way I can describe it.

Smaller systems have their place. I could never fit 15's in my livingroom where my Revels are. Even then they have a sub to do the "heavy lifting" which helps.

Rob

"Snap of the E-145's.." - I think you nailed it. The E-145 is rather magical to me and "snap" is a great term to describe them. Although the 813's use lowly 2215's. I have kicked around the idea of swapping 2235's in, but was told to keep the 2215's and enjoy the 813's as they are.

Agreed. As much as I'd love to have 813's downstairs where the TV is, I don't have the space. So 811C's stacked on top of subwoofers it is.

[Robh3606]

"Snap of the E-145's.." - I think you nailed it. The E-145 is rather magical to me and "snap" is a great term to describe them. Although the 813's use lowly 2215's. I have kicked around the idea of swapping 2235's in, but was told to keep the 2215's and enjoy the 813's as they are.

Agreed. As much as I'd love to have 813's downstairs where the TV is, I don't have the space. So 811C's stacked on top of subwoofers it is.

Oh didn't realize it was 2215's my mistake. Nothing lowly about them also use an underhung coil just like the E-145s. That was good advice not to change them.

Rob

[DerekTheGreat]

Good to know. Seems every thread I've read suggests the 2235 as superior in all aspects and thus an upgrade. I'm on the look-out for NOS recone kits for mine...

[Robh3606]

Good to know. Seems every thread I've read suggests the 2235 as superior in all aspects and thus an upgrade. I'm on the look-out for NOS recone kits for mine...

Good luck on the cone kits, there should be some stashed around. The 2235 is a late 70's early 80's driver? Came after 2231. The 2215's have their roots back in the 60's so very different drivers. With 2235's you get more x-max, more power handling, with the 2215 you get a significant jump in sensitivity lower moving mass more similar to 2234.

You are using subs so why mess with the "helper" woofer.

Rob

[Mr. Widget]

Good to know. Seems every thread I've read suggests the 2235 as superior in all aspects and thus an upgrade. I'm on the look-out for NOS recone kits for mine...

A million years ago I had a bunch of LE15As (consumer version of the 2215) over time I changed them out for 2235Hs. The 2235Hs dig a little deeper and can certainly take more power, but looking back on it, I am not convinced that the 2235H was a subjective improvement.


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[DerekTheGreat]

Good luck on the cone kits, there should be some stashed around. The 2235 is a late 70's early 80's driver? Came after 2231. The 2215's have their roots back in the 60's so very different drivers. With 2235's you get more x-max, more power handling, with the 2215 you get a significant jump in sensitivity lower moving mass more similar to 2234.

You are using subs so why mess with the "helper" woofer.

Rob

A million years ago I had a bunch of LE15As (consumer version of the 2215) over time I changed them out for 2235Hs. The 2235Hs dig a little deeper and can certainly take more power, but looking back on it, I am not convinced that the 2235H was a subjective improvement.


Widget

"A million years ago." Great to know! That'll squelch any remaining curiosity I had in swapping to 2235's. Guess it's like Rob said, I'm using subs so there's no need to swap. Perhaps the higher sensitivity is why they used the 2215 in the 813C? It's been a damn fine system, I have no complaints about the 2215's. I was just drinking the "upgrade" Kool-Aid. If I could get my hands on two NOS 2215 recone kits, that would be dandy. I check HiFi Shark and eBay weekly, but no dice so far.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I’ve heard Rob’s set up with the E-145. It’s definitely a fast driver & perfect for mid base.

Speaking of reviews Erin has pissed off loudspeaker manufacturer Tekton.

I am posting this because l feel it’s important to understand the perspective between the on-line or You-Tube reviewer and the loudspeaker manufacturer. How these aspiring online reviewers operate and interact with manufacturers is quite different to legitimate reviews arranged directly with the manufacturer.

The weird thing is that Sean Olive brought up the risk of litigation when reviewing a loudspeaker during the interview. Erin seems to ad lib his understanding of the subject matter & projects the impression he’s treading into uncharted waters with his online enterprise.

I think Eric the owner of Tekton makes some really pertinent points in this vid clip below and provides a great perspective on the misunderstandings that can occur with unsolicited reviews involving publication of measurements and the scrutiny that can unfold.

In the other hand Steve Guttenberg who is an industry veteran and journalist has successfully delivered thousands of reviews without a hitch.

It really is about the listening. Let your ears tell you if you like what you’re hearing.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=I5qj09yT...z5bx2d5zYzS03e

https://youtube.com/watch?v=I5qj09yT...z5bx2d5zYzS03e

https://tektondesign.com/products/

[Robh3606]

Hello Ian

I would look at both sides.

And it's not just Erin it's issues with another review of one of his speakers done by Amir at ASW and a third review as well.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f....48732/page-78 Post 1558

With ASR ongoing go through the thread and decide for yourself what's going on.

Rob