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Thread: What Happened?!

  1. #16
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Hey Bo

    That makes it harder to give guidance and encourage hardwork for true "needs" rather than "want, want want".

    When I was a kid I could cut lawns, deliver papers, shovel snow, do odd jobs ect. I did it all to earn the cash so I could get what I wanted. This day and age on Long Island you can't deliver papers or cut lawns, the adults have those jobs and if you shovel you run the risk of getting robbed. It is so hard for a kid 12-13 years old to find a job when it really matters. When you first WANT to work. When you start young you learn to listen to people and get a real look at what it takes to make a buck. I know plenty of people who feel the same way and desperately look for something, a job, camp, anything to teach their kids outside the house what it's like in the real world. The only way you learn a work ethic is by working.


    Rob

  2. #17
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    "Look at your kids - I want this - I want that. The minute they have it there is another thing wanted, one week later it is likely to be forgotten. Things/Objects seldom make a lasting impression. People, interactions and feelings make a lasting impression." -Quote from Johnny Haugen Sørgård

    "IMO, kids today are no different then we were, then. We all want more of whatever tastes, sounds, looks, and feels great. The evolution is that awareness of what is "out there" comes so much earlier than in the past. That makes it harder to give guidance and encourage hardwork for true "needs" rather than "want, want want"." -Quote from Bo


    I certainly was no different as a kid. I remember once when I was about ten, a family friend had taken me to a theme park where I saw a sword that "I had to have." The friend asked if it was so important that I would spend, "my own money on it". Being a ten year old and having no concept of money I certainly was convinced that I would. She bought the cheap plastic toy for me and I triumphantly went home with the prize. A month or two later when the toy was relegated to the back of the pile I remembered our conversation and realized my folly. It was a hell of a lesson.

    Children can be taught. Give them credit, they are not
    our adversaries, they are little us... and with luck they can grow up to be better than us.

    Widget

  3. #18
    Senior Seņor boputnam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don McRitchie
    The market rewards questionable and even outright illegal behavior, as long as it results in your winning financially. Think of some of the current sports heroes as examples. Or think of Enron, Worldcom or Tyco if you want corporate examples. These firms were handsomely rewarded by the market for deceitful behavior. Any decision that results in short term profits is stunningly encouraged by the market. <O</O<O</O
    Re-opening an idle thread is fraught with danger...

    Anyway, this is not entirely true - or really even partially true. The "market" rewards with share valuations which are a multiple of present day earnings potential with imputed growth rates. If the investor collective sees higher future earnings it will discount that into current share prices taking valuations higher - the converse is equally true.

    In the cases you mentioned - and all like them - fact was obscured from (ready) analysis. What I mean is, the financial trickery was sufficiently complex (and lamely endorsed by the BoD) that it could not be deciphered until the web of decit began to fray, enabling a peak into the (true) financial underpinnings (i.e., the emporer had no clothes). Even with SEC filings requirements, financial instruments and their offsetting obligations can be so complex that even the senior management (and certainly most BoD's) cannot accurately assess their risk.

    These firms were handsomely rewarded by the market for deceitful behavior. - Not true. The lofty valuations were only afforded so long as the fraud was sustained. Once the true worth of the enterprise was seen - including all the offsetting (and offside...) financial positions - the market quickly discounted the true valuation taking the share prices down hard. The market collective is decidedly unemotional about such things. Individual investors, however, can be quite emotional.
    bo

    "Indeed, not!!"

  4. #19
    Registered User paragon's Avatar
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    ???

    Superconny at Bo`s pic (TWA) ??
    Saw her on a "flying day"(?) on a dutch iland called Texel years ago.
    Yes, there also where Spitfire, Hurricane, Mustang, Mitchell, Harrier, F 16,
    ......

    Eckhard

  5. #20
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Damn it Paragon... go start an airplane thread...


    Bo, I think in theory your points about the "Market" as in the "Big Board" are correct. However in reality I am not so sure. There is a great lack of forward thinking and ethics. The "Market" rewards short term profits (greater productivity due to down sizing) and punishes long term strategy (investing in infrastructure or building up a work force). Taken over a long view after the company has sky rocketed in "value" and then crashed into Chapter 11, I suppose you are correct, the "Market" gets corrected, but that is no way to run an economy.


    Widget

  6. #21
    Webmaster Don McRitchie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boputnam
    Re-opening an idle thread is fraught with danger...
    Yes it is and I would suggest that we take this to PM's if there is a need to continue. I obviously could have been clearer. My point is that values, in this case corporate values, are being defined by the market. While the individual shareholder did not benefit from this deceipt (in fact they took the brunt of the loss), the management that perpetrated it did and saw nothing wrong. These false valuations were used as the basis for their compensation. The auditors were complicit in many of the unethical transactions and saw nothing wrong. The boards of directors, who had a duty for fiscal oversignt, saw nothing wrong. The point is that all of their values were driven by the market. I could go on and on about crony capitalism that is grossly distorting and poisoning the marketplace, but it would likely degenerate into a divisive discussion that is probably best not held here.

    Don

  7. #22
    Senior Seņor boputnam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don McRitchie
    ...the individual shareholder ... took the brunt of the loss
    I would posit they took all the losses. Thanks for the clarification.

    In frauds of history management did "front-run" trades and trades with insider (and non-public) formation, liquidating their share positions before bad news was released publically. Conversely, they had "oaded the boat" before good news was announced positioning them for huge profits as the market discounted the "news". That trading is more scrutinized (read: regulated) as a harbinger of insider knowledge.

    The more recent frauds were as you say - but in these, management largely took the cash (Kozlowski of Tyco, etc.) as absurd bonuses and perquisites. In the case of Skilling and Lay, in addition to huge remuneration, they did both sell enourmous holdings well in-advance of the cliff of ruin, and it is my opinion this will be proven to have been done on non-public information and they help secure the knot by which they will hang.

    Now, about the A380. Airbus is mounting a PR assault, to "re-introduce" the beast, and raise investor interest. They are needing "buyer pull-through" to stimulate orders. So, we will be deludged until the orders start, again...
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    bo

    "Indeed, not!!"

  8. #23
    Alex Lancaster
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    Unhappy

    How true is it that the countries involved in AeroSpatiale subsidize it heavily?, I feel dumb, but I still like fair trade.

  9. #24
    Super Moderator Hofmannhp's Avatar
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    subsidize

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Lancaster
    How true is it that the countries involved in AeroSpatiale subsidize it heavily?, I feel dumb, but I still like fair trade.
    Hi Alex,


    yes,this is a fact,....yesterday I discussed this with a friend which is very well informed about this......

    6 years ago the US economic prosecuters wanted to go against this by a bunch of high graded attorneys on a international trade level......a year later they pulled back their charges......somebody found out, that they do the same with Boeing and Mc Donnel-Douglas.

    HP
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