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Thread: JBL L200B with 2216nd, LE85/H91, and 077. Crossover recommendations.

  1. #1
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    JBL L200B with 2216nd, LE85/H91, and 077. Crossover recommendations.

    So this is what I have:

    L200B or L200A cabinets (I have both)
    2216nd woofer
    LE85/H91 mid
    077 hf

    and L200A/NX16A crossover

    Looking for some help me design crossover or suggest a crossover that would work well with this?

    The first issue I’m having is finding the right woofer crossover design for the 2216nd. Ideally I would like to copy the 4367 but I cannot find the crossover specs. Then again they show the crossover point of 700 hz and I’m thinking 1100 hz or 1200 hz would be more ideal for this 3 way?

    Or should I just use the NX16A for the low and mid crossover? My biggest issue with the NX16A crossover being the size capacitor used on the mid (6uf). It is half the size of the cap used in the L200 original (12uf), L200B/L300 (16.5uf), Nelson Pass L300 (22uf).

    For the HF 077 I was just going to do the single 1uf cap same as the Nelson Pass crossover.

    Any recommendations are appreciated. I’m kind of new at this.

  2. #2
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    Sounds like a nice project and a nice woofer.

    If your looking for a better than okay result your going to needs a passive network specific to your drivers.

    I can assist with a passive crossover and have all your drivers.

    If you click on my email address in my signature you can send me an outline of what youre looking for and l will correspond with you and look at some options with Leap 5 simulations.

    Ian

  3. #3
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    I have similar (see posts on AudioKarma as well)
    L200
    2216ND-1
    N8000 xover driving
    LE85 & 077
    I'm biamping (tossed the LX16s) via a Venu360, LF@1khz, and (2216) EQ's posted elsewhere here.
    I measured the ports (it's a 5 cu ft cabinet) thinking they'd need changing, but concluded not.)

    The ND1s sound fantastic - No complaints whatsoever.
    The horn is definitely a limitation - still considering alternatives.

    I'm defintely interested in what Ian comes up with too!!
    (Scott is my 'advisor')

  4. #4
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    In my list of possible future projects, an upgraded L200 is on the short list.

    I'll either use a pair of 1501AL woofers that I already have or get a pair of 2216NDs.
    The plan would be to modify the cabinets to accept the longer 2312 horns and use an active crossover in the 800Hz region. Between the LE85 and the 077s I would use a passive crossover.

    Interested to see what you guys come up with.


    Widget

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by KCjblSound View Post

    The first issue I’m having is finding the right woofer crossover design for the 2216nd. Ideally I would like to copy the 4367 but I cannot find the crossover specs. Then again they show the crossover point of 700 hz and I’m thinking 1100 hz or 1200 hz would be more ideal for this 3 way?
    For the HF 077 I was just going to do the single 1uf cap same as the Nelson Pass crossover.

    Any recommendations are appreciated. I’m kind of new at this.
    Actually, it's the S4700 and the way it implements of the 2216nd that you ought to be copying for your lowpass ( IMO ).

    After a bunch of research I would suggest that RobH3606s lowpass for his 2216nd is what you ought to try out ( his lowpass is pretty close to the guesstimated values used in the S4700 with a couple of functional differences > due to his box not having the convex//curved kick-plate installed which appears to bump-up a range of frequencies ).

    Here's the range of frequencies that the kick-plate seems to bumpup ( this ground-plane measurement of the M2 parts from a German HiFi magazine is something LHF member "pos" posted many years back ).

    Name:  JBL M2_2216H+2430K_raw-curves_forum_.jpg
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    Along with some raw responses taken from JBL's EDS sheets.

    Name:  JBL 2216nd EDS vs 2216nd Magazine vs 2231H EDS.jpg
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    Rob implemented a 3-pole design that uses a 4mH coil ( amp side ) followed by a 52uF capacitor ( that goes to ground ) with a 2mH coil connecting directly to the woofers + input connector ( whatever color that actually is ).
    - His stated values somewhat electrically start to mimic the EQing effects of the kick-plate ( here, the "bump-filter" center can be clearly seen in the included impedance graph in the simulation ) .

    For the horn circuit I would first try the Nelson Pass designed circuit ( even though it was auditioned for the the HL92 long horn, my simulations show it'll work quite well for the shorter HL91 ).
    - If you desire, you can reduce the primary 22uF cap ( C3 ) to around 18uF ( gaining a bit extra//mostly un-needed protection unless you're cranking it > without losing the magic the circuit was designed around > which is "low-Q" filtering ).

    If you play your stereo loud then the Nelson Pass circuit is most likely not for you ( since it takes the horn down to 700hz and will definitely stress that nice aluminum diaphragm ).

    My sims suggest the user should connect both the woofer and horn circuit using the same positive polarity ( whatever colors on the drivers that translates to ).
    - This difference from the Nelson Pass recommendation results from the horn ( and therefore Acoustic Center ) being shorter by 3 inches.

    Blue = 2216nd , Red = 2231H ( both are taken from JBL EDS sheets )

    Name:  L200B + 2216nd_.png
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    Name:  NelsonPass L300_Crossover-ReWork.png
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    The L200 enclosure with the 4" deep protruding sides has a bunch of unavoidable cavitation//deflection effects that could use a bit of extra EQ boost from the woofers lowpass ( somewhat like Rob executed ).

    The coil values listed here for the S4700 network are obviously wrong ( perhaps they're even a deliberate mis-direction for a current product ).

    Name:  JBL S4700 schematic.jpg
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  6. #6
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    Hi Earl,

    Thanks for contributing some ideas.

    Im a little delayed with rain for outside measurements of the horn, the slot radiator and the 2216 driver in an enclosure that closely resembles the L200 dimensions. I also have a renovation.

    From a diy perspective the user can implement a very simple crossover such as a first order and experiment.

    However, with the limitations of this type of driver combination previously outlined in a paper by David Smith, D B Keele , JR and John Eargle some more thought, measurements and assessment of the crossover is worthwhile with powerful CAD loudspeaker software. Back then crossover designs were iterative using empirical techniques and theory. So with real measurement data and advanced software the door is open to further exploration.

    There are also the physical problems such as the 150-160mm offset of the drive voice coils. Just how audible these physical differences are is another matter. The Altec 604E had similar offset with the woofer and concentric horn driver and innovative solutions were found by Floyd and Toole in the early 80s. Of course if you want to you can apply corrections in dsp and come up with something too. But sometimes the method creates other problems and complexity.

    I dont think there is any hurry. As l pointed out to Patrick Bateman over on Diyaudio.com. Supposition makes for interesting discussions. But a belief held without proof or certain knowledge; an assumption or hypothesis is dangerous ground to be walking on in loudspeaker crossover network design.

    Ian

  7. #7
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    So with real measurement data and advanced software the door is open to further exploration.
    Absolutely, but every speaker is a different beast.

    A few years back I wanted to see if I could make my Project Widget loudspeakers work with a single amp instead of being tri-amped with a passive super tweeter. I took a series of precise measurements with CLIO and worked with Rob using LEAP to model a 4-way passive network for my Project Widget loudspeakers. The networks that Rob and LEAP suggested were fairly complex, but I built them on a test bed with very high quality caps and coils and began exploring. I could never get the speakers to sound as good as they do in their tri-amped configuration.

    FWIW: I also ran them fully quad-amped at one point, but found that to my ears and to the ears of others who listened to them at length there was no audible benefit with the quad amp configuration.


    Widget

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    Hi Earl,
    <<<SNIP>>>

    So with real measurement data and advanced software the door is open to further exploration.

    Ian
    Ian,

    That inferred assumption that I'm not working from real measurement data and advanced software is pretty off-base.

    I am using good software and respectable//repeatable files

    Granted I'm working with borrowed files ( traces ), but they are mostly all CLIO generated.

    My work builds upon the very solid foundation of others ( Rob Hamel + Zilch + Giskard ).

    Here's one such file used;



    How else is one going to obtain such a large representative sampling of this classic driver ( le85 ) ?

    The horn driver file that I'm using is serial number 22222 ( as chosen by Zilch ) .

    Since I have only a single 2420 diaphragm in a 2470 body ( + that diaphragm needs refitting ), I choose to use Zilchs traces for their greater accuracy and consistency.

    Do you have 6 le85's to choose from ?

    FWIW, I measured the AC offset ( Z offset ) at around 5.8" with REW > using a 2425/2307 as a standin for the 2420 ( the top-plates//VC are at the same depth ) and a 2225H for the woofer.
    - Measurement was on-axis to the horn throat + the "Center 2 Center" of the 2 drivers was 14" .
    - The biggest "iffyness" here is "how divergent is the Acoustic Center of the aluminum coiled 2216nd ( with it's dual coils ) is when compared to the single copper-coil of 22xx series of drivers?"

    Here's a look at the acoustic summing that Zilch achieved with his "Keeper" 3-way using his 4507 cabinet ( somewhat like your stated intention of using a substitute cabinet ).

    Name:  Zilch_Keeper-Network_flipped-MIDS_ 2405 4507.jpg
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    That " Keeper" network is this one ( the polarity of the horn driver needs to be flipped compared to the woofer );




    Using Zilch generated, plus JBL EDS files, along with the approximated values of S4700 woofer network, I'm able to produce these results ( applying the 5.8" Z-offset figure and changing some of the LC values in the Keeper network );
    - it seems that Zilch used around 9" for an acoustic offset which I believe explains the need to flip the polarity of the horn-driver.

    Name:  Zilch designed Keeper Network_.png
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    Here's the Nelson Pass bandpass married to RobH's lowpass values;

    Name:  NelsonPass inspired 3-way Network_on the short-horn_.png
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    As earlier mentioned ( to the OP ), I would first build-up the Nelson Pass variant for a listen (if loud playback levels aren't needed > one can see the low 700hz crossover point which will stress that diaphragm if played loud ).
    - The Zilch 3-pole variant offers the higher 900hz point ( but his LC values don't agree with my sims > unless I increase the "Z" offset. Therefore, one would need to experiment some by substituting LC values to see which values work best at crossover.


  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post

    Confirmation
    To be clear you are definitely wanting to add the 077/2405 slot radiator and make it a 3 way?
    What power amp or amplifier are you using?
    Do you know which diaphragms you have in your LE85’s?

    If l upset the natives and wildlife with the tests you maybe requested to make a donation. Lol

    I have attached images of the drivers to relieve any anxieties Earl may have about whether any of this is real.
    Thank you for your generous time and efforts with this.

    I have the 077, I figured if I have them then why not? As my understanding is the LE-85 doesn’t do much above 12k hz.

    This will be ran on a 30 WPC Fisher 400 tube receiver with the audio source being a modern DAC.

    The diaphragm in the LE-85 are new Radian 16 ohm diaphragms.

    The reason I was wanting to crossover at 1,200 hz is because my understanding is the H91 is distorted below that level and from what I’ve read the 2216nd is capable from 30 hz - 1,200 hz.

    I have both L200 and L200B cabs, I figured I could play with which port type (1 vs 2) sounds better. Although the L200B are in much better cosmetic condition.

  10. #10
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    Dont be offended but you what we call pig headed. Through and Through
    Start using it (your brain) instead of blowing off your big ugly New Yorker mouth. Theres nothing worse. Your a really Bad Ambassador for anyone watching this forum from anywhere in the World.

    They are watching you.

    You reactions are very offensive and defensive person. Your frightened or something? Your passing the blame.

    You dont have the bandwidth to investigate, understand and moderate. Your not prepared or capable of accepting change.

    Your ineffective and obsolete: Deleted.
    Ian, don't be offended, but look in the mirror. You are not being a very good ambassador yourself.


    Personalities aside, you have obviously put a fair amount of thought and effort into the technical side of your posts, but so has Earl and so have others. This is meant to be a collaborative space, it works best when people work together building on each other's thoughts and experiences. It's great that you want to help others with their designs and their DIY projects, but try to be more like Nelson Pass, he is able to offer wise council without being condescending.


    Widget

  11. #11
    Senior Member 1audiohack's Avatar
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    I am interested in this thread as well.

    I have a pair of 4333s that have had all three horns in them and I am just not happy with them. I have done a fair amount of DSP work with them and of course just for fun ran the stock crossovers too.

    I need to get them out and really work on them as its kind of been a just for fun here a little there a little project.

    The 2311s in the 4350s seem less objectionable and I think it is the crossover points allowed with a 12 between the 15s and 2441/2311/2308. I am either going to swap the 2235s for 2234s or most likely 2216s.

    I havent had a single day to myself single mid April. Grrrr. Maybe this weekend haha.

    All the best guys.
    Barry.
    If we knew what the hell we were doing, we wouldn't call it research would we.

  12. #12
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    Hey Barry,

    Regarding your comment about trying all three horns, specifically which horns are you talking about?

    On a larger topic, in my experience virtually every horn sounds better when you raise the crossover frequency. This would align with your comments on the 2311. In an earlier time, JBL used that horn with a 500Hz crossover (Then it was called the HL93 with the lens). Bumping it up 1100Hz would certainly help! Similarly the 2307 horn in the 4343 is pushed up to 1250Hz which can only help.

    Unfortunately in both cases we are talking 4-ways... trying to keep things simple in the L200 vein does present a challenge.


    Widget

  13. #13
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    Edit: Material Deleted Due to Lack of Interest
    Mr Widget: I don't accept your Feedback
    This is an explanation what you lot are doing wrong and you keep doing it over and over.
    I'm here for that enquiry made by the OP and that enquiry only. I'm not here for your entertainment.
    You've missed the point unfortunately. Earl missed the point and went all over the place and started regurgitating other peoples
    designs, ideas ect. He did not ask further questions to actually determine other important relevant information.
    The OP made it clear why and what he wanted. Then Rob unfortunately over reacts and it over.

    Example
    If you ring up a bank about something specific to your accounts and you have questions its it appropriate to listen
    and understand why they are calling? Ask further questions so you can fully and correctly answer and the enquiry quickly and
    efficiently. What you don't want to hear is someone blathering on about what they think and what someone else did.
    You don't want to on the phone for hours or making several calls and no resolution.

    This is my world. I build systems, I design customer journeys, I train people. I'm an expert in that area and made a career out of it.
    Coming here is no different frankly. It never was and it never will be.

    If you feel my approach is condescending your in the wrong business. You might be and that up to you.
    I don't have to fit in with your mentality and how you see the world.

    I don't suffer fools gladly.

    I receive scores of "specific direct enquires" from all over the world and its growing all the time.
    Condescending in not the feedback or in the testimonials I receive.
    Your attempts to label and make defamatory comments towards me are pointless and don't answer the issue.

  14. #14
    Senior Member 1audiohack's Avatar
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    Hello Mr. Widget;

    2307s, 2311s and 2312s have been in my 4333s as well as a pair of 2307s that I parted off in a lathe at the 1.5 bore point and re-flanged them to accept 2451s. I needed the 2311s for another project.

    Barry.
    If we knew what the hell we were doing, we wouldn't call it research would we.

  15. #15
    Senior Member 1audiohack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KCjblSound View Post
    So this is what I have: Looking for some help me design crossover or suggest a crossover that would work well with this? .

    Any recommendations are appreciated. I’m kind of new at this.
    Ian it seems you may have missed the last sentence of the original post. ?

    Barry.
    If we knew what the hell we were doing, we wouldn't call it research would we.

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