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Thread: JBL 4429 ANd MC 275 MKII

  1. #16
    Senior Member davidpou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post

    That said, measurements help with many things but rarely sound quality.

    Widget
    yes !
    Can't be only subjective...
    Being probably a bit harsh on them i would say they are (very) good HC speakers.
    For this they are coming back on the market.

  2. #17
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    Break in period of one to two months would hopefully be a factor.

    I hope they do come around as there is nothing worse than initial disappointment

  3. #18
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    Break in period of one to two months would hopefully be a factor.

    I hope they do come around as there is nothing worse than initial disappointment
    I believe these are secondhand speakers, not sealed box from the factory.

    That said, I have heard people comment on the benefits of a break in period for audio products that had been in service for quite a while prior to being installed in their listening room. I believe that most brand-new speakers require a little time for the FS to drop, but I think the phenomenon is more about the listener getting used to the new sound than the actual performance of the speaker, amplifier, wire, etc. actually changing.


    Widget

  4. #19
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    Hi David,

    How is it going?

    It occurred to me that with your experience with the 4425 and 4430 those are 100 x100 bi radials and two way. The key difference is the 4429 horn is asymmetrical and so the focus to tighter with less vertical dispersion. The 4425 and 4430 bi radial is a more diffuse dispersion.

    So it is possible that this change in the focus of more direct and less indirect sound in your room is a contributing factor in your subjective impressions. They may sound move vivid than the 4425 on some program material? That can be good and bad depending on your music you like.

    What are your options? Maybe leave the enclosures facing straight, not toed in and trying moving them apart or sitting closer within an equilateral triangle if thats possible in your room.

    My thought is to attempt less in your face presence by sitting between them if that makes sense by trying different widths apart until your happy. The closer they are the more vivid and intense it will sound. Because the 4429 has more accuracy than the 4425 and 4430 this will potentially put the edge on the vividness of the presentation. I am wondering if this is what your hearing?

    My other thought is the output tubes in your 275? Have you previously tried different tubes? Or try the 4 ohm transformer tap again. Different cables perhaps tr and get a more mellow and relaxed presentation.

    https://www.stereophile.com/content/...r-measurements

    Another review 4429 review
    https://www.hifireport.com/jbl-4429-...ring-artifact/

  5. #20
    Senior Member davidpou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    Hi David,

    How is it going?
    I decided to give them a second chance.
    Mr Widget is right, might be a question of being acustomed to the "new sound".

    I don't have the time to make close measurements but a health check seems necessary. The pots are working as I could tune my slope right on target but as mentioned i had to put them almost to the max to get this 2.2 db slope from 2.5kHz till 25khz where i stoped.

    No doubt they are clearer, give more details, have a spacious presentation. they are not shouting at my face, the bass are strong as described, even if not getting as low as the 4425. But this woofer is faster than the 2214H.

    My concern is really a matter of taste and spirit i shall say.

    I put the Crown drivecore CDI 4x300 with them. ok it's class D. but it s got this audio architect DSP in it. didn't have time to play with that yet. it seems to work better than the mac letting one think it could improve with a good class AB SS amp. On digitally recorded material it is really really good. Less with pre digital recordings IMHO.
    Will try to feed the 4429 with in 4x300 mode (they are in 2x300 now with a link between the binding post, and tune the DSP to the harman Curve. Do you guys use other room curves ?

    thanks for the stimulation anyway, ian.

  6. #21
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    No worries.

    It’s obviously a new sound but is always useful to understand why? Your not imagining the difference and there are a certain combination of acoustic reasons for the differences. That was my point.

    The human ear is a funny gadget. It can discriminate a lot of things you just won’t see in a snapshot frequency response measurement on axis. The accuracy of the transducers (paper cones to metal diaphragms), the dynamic linearity of the system and a whole host of time domain interference that you can refer to as your room. At least half what you hear is your room and these 4429’s excite your room differently to the 4430. It may surprise you that l had the pleasure of listening to people who were shitty with their DD67000’s and have been so for years. On inspection and 7,000 km later it was their less than conscientious approach to listening to them that was the problem. They were just too freaking arrogant to recognise it. Some people who on the one hand are brilliant and have the means to acquire this stuff can also be the most stupid when it comes to appreciating it.

    Hi Fidelity Sound is not for everyone.

  7. #22
    Member sebackman's Avatar
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    Totally agree with Ian and Widget.

    I cannot see how 4425 or 4430 would stand any objective comparison to the 4429. The modern wave guides are significantly better in all aspects unless you need the capacity to project sound at a very far distances. Modern technology is just better. It may not suit your ears or taste, but objectively they are hands down "better".

    Each of us need to find our preferred sound that our own brain likes. That may not be the most objectively accurate sound but we enjoy it more nevertheless. My brain does not favor the bi-radials but I do enjoy the older blue-baffles with the even less accurate conical horns. That is weird.

    It is probably your ears that are used to the previous speakers. The ear is very susceptive to sound it has recognizes and actually favorizes them until getting used to a different sound, that then get favorized.

    If you give them a few weeks I don't think you will want to go back to the 4430's. -Or really go direct to any other speaker regardless of brand/model as your ears will have adapted to the 4429's.

    As they are very good there are probably few speakers that are objectively significantly better but they do of course exist. I would argue that moving to a large format driver and potentially a 2-way design (easier to get right) may be an improvement (ie the newer 4367/4349 or similar). If it is worth it for you in your room only you can be the judge. An alternative could be the LSR 708.

    There is a lot of scientific material to read about hearing on the internet, just not in the "audiophile section"....

    It is a really "security" function in the brain to sort out "non dangerous" (familiar) sounds to save processing capacity to potential "threats". IE things we do or do not recognize the brain can "automatically" label, familiar=not dangerous or unknown= be vigilant.

    Audiophiles tend to attribute way to much importance to their tech gear and to little on human hearing and room impact.

    From my experience it is very difficult to objectively rank speakers by listening. To reduce optical and hearing bias I think a double blind test would be required and that is not easy to achieve outside a lab environment. Mono side-by-side listening can get you some of the distance but measuring is really the only other option. By using gated measuring much of the room impact can be taken out of the equation to be able to compare speakers.

    -And comparing different speakers at different times in different rooms and maybe even with different source materials is just ridiculous as a yard stick.

    Well enough ranting.

    On the topic of breaking in I just quote Mr. Toole here;

    "In parts of the audio industry, there is a belief that all components from wires to electronics to loudspeakers need to “break in.” Out of the box, it is assumed that they will not be performing at their best. Proponents vehemently deny that this process has anything to do with adaptation, writing extensively about changes in performance that they claim are easily audible in several aspects of device performance. Yet, the author is not aware of any controlled test in which any consequential audible differences were found, even in loudspeakers, where there would seem to be some opportunities for material changes. A few years ago, to satisfy a determined marketing person, the research group performed a test using samples of a loudspeaker that was claimed to benefit from “breaking in.” Measurements before and after the recommended break-in showed no differences in frequency response, except a very tiny change around 30–40 Hz in the one area where break-in effects could be expected: woofer compliance. Careful listening tests revealed no audible differences. None of this was surprising to the engineering staff. It is not clear whether the marketing person was satisfied by the finding. To all of us, this has to be very reassuring because it means that the performance of loudspeakers is stable, except for the known small change in woofer compliance caused by exercising the suspension and the deterioration—breaking down—of foam surrounds and some diaphragm materials with time, moisture, and atmospheric pollutants.

    It is fascinating to note that “breaking-in” seems always to result in an improvement in performance. Why? Do all mechanical and electrical devices and materials acquire a musical aptitude that is missing in their virgin state? Why is it never reversed, getting worse with use? The reality is that engineers seek out materials, components, and construction methods that do not change with time. Suppose that the sound did improve over time as something broke in. What then? Would it eventually decline, just as wine goes “over the hill”?


    Kind regards
    //Rob
    The solution to the problem changes the problem.
    -And always remember that all of your equipment was made by the lowest bidder

  8. #23
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    David. I do compare the 4429s to the 4333s frequently. The 4429s does have a tendency to exaggerate the bass my room. I also think the 4333s have a more realistic mid range. Vocals are where the old 43 series excels. As Sebackman has said, he likes the old series monitors better then the newer versions. I concur. I have thought about making modifications to the 4429s. For one I would like to replace the mid diaphragms with aluminum, vice the titanium's that they have. I also have thought of replacing the low frequency inductors with ERSE fer
    rite cores in hopes of tightening up the bass.

    Regards,

    John

  9. #24
    Senior Member herve M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    Unfortunately I can't give you any feedback on the 4429. I have never heard them. I am also not familiar with either of the HF units used in the speakers.

    Regarding the "natural timbre"? The 4429 uses titanium diaphragms in both HF units which is not my favorite. The better JBLs use Al, Mg or Be... all three of which have sounded better to my ears in every example I have heard. Others don't seem to have an issue with Ti compression drivers. There are objective and subjective differences mostly concerning distortion and diaphragm breakup modes.


    Widget
    The HF compression driver is 175nd: aluminium diaphragm with aquaplas.... Only UHF is titanium.

  10. #25
    Senior Member davidpou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sebackman View Post
    Totally agree with Ian and Widget.

    Each of us need to find our preferred sound that our own brain likes. That may not be the most objectively accurate sound but we enjoy it more nevertheless. My brain does not favor the bi-radials but I do enjoy the older blue-baffles with the even less accurate conical horns. That is weird.

    It is probably your ears that are used to the previous speakers. The ear is very susceptive to sound it has recognizes and actually favorizes them until getting used to a different sound, that then get favorized.

    If you give them a few weeks I don't think you will want to go back to the 4430's. -Or really go direct to any other speaker regardless of brand/model as your ears will have adapted to the 4429's.

    //Rob
    I am totally into this self-confirmation of beliefs; this is a topic I still explore in psychology (self-deception and the dynamics of beliefs) , so I can’t understand more what you mean.
    I was reading again this thread, the dialog between Mctwin and this Argentinian guy who was running his 4429 with a 275 aswell.
    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...highlight=4429
    Strange to read that Mctwin was selling his Mcintosh 252 and obtained good results with the Crown amps, cause that’s what I did yesterday! four years later.
    And indeed to my surprise the CDI Drivecore did well with the 4429. No DSP yet.
    I am more than convinced that what is there before the speakers is important : my recent replacement of DAC from Bryston BDA2 to Denafrips Pontus 2 was a big step forward. If the Argentinian didn’t get good bass on the 4429 might have been his DAC, and not so much the break in mentioned. (not saying break in doesn’t exist). My preamp is neutral (Bryston BP17) so with the crown I hear more the DAC than anything else. And this DAC is sweet ! The Mark Levinson amp will have to wait also I am afraid.
    I am also more than convinced than passive correction is better than DSP (mr Widget), and the thread shows the result of good passive correction in Mctwin ‘s 70 sq meters room, with his FRC. Unfortunately for me I don’t have a dedicated room. I have to wait a change of house for that. Worst, my living room seems speaker unfriendly, as measurements shows. So DSP seems the only way.
    I surrender to your authority, you three.
    Ian, for your customers with the top of the line that couldn’t appreciate them…You got that a lot with cars: how many Porsche or Ferrari owners know how to drive them on the track ? (even in the streets sometimes). In France we call that “giving caviar to the pigs”. I will try to be an educated one, thanks to you.
    Still the Argentinian guy four years earlier was not blown by them, and John here is thinking of tickling them…
    There would be place for two themes:
    American versus Japanese JBL: already done on LH as seen in the tuning of the 4367 woofer…
    And for me analog RECORDINGS versus digital ones. The 4430 and 4425 although advertised as the doorgate to the digital era, were tuned by adults having heard analog all their life. The 4429 are much better on digitally recorded music (no matter the genre) I think.

  11. #26
    Senior Member Odd's Avatar
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    JBL 4429




    • 1200FE-8 Low-Frequency Transducer
      Featuring a 300mm (12-inch) pure-pulp cone woofer and large-aperture ferrite magnet and edge-wound aluminium voice-coil assembly, the 1200FE-8 driver delivers impressively deep, visceral bass that will not degrade at any volume level.
    • 175Nd-3 High-Frequency Compression Driver
      With a 50mm (1-3/4-inch) pure-titanium diaphragm, the 175Nd-3 compression driver produces extremely accurate midrange to high-frequency performance with minimal distortion and power compression for explosively realistic dynamics at all listening levels.
    • 138Nd Ultrahigh-Frequency Compression Driver
      A 19mm (3/4-inch) pure-titanium diaphragm produces realistic dynamics far beyond the range of human hearing, with ultrasmooth response that is ideal for SACD™ and other high-resolution audio formats.
    43XX (2235-2123-2450-2405-CC 3155)5235-4412-4406-4401-L250-18Ti-L40-S109 Aquarius lV-C38 (030) 305P MkII

  12. #27
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    This has become a very interesting discussion.

    David on the topic of alternative loudspeakers. Over the years l have corresponded with some loudspeaker builders in Paris and horns loaded systems seem popular in either the traditional big TAD style and the elliptical oblate spheroid. Your countrymen are very technically proficient with this sort of hobby. I mention this as there’s a lot of opportunity to go rogue and create your sound!

    People do change and even Greg Timbers has continually evolved his system and his loudspeakers. I recall one meeting with him and he wanted me to hear his system. After he played a few tunes he said l’m not aiming for HiFi. I’m aiming real live sound.

    On the topic of perceptions l was told by Nelson Pass that he had read some research indicating the perception of sounds starts with a toddler learning to speak from its mother. Apparently languages plays a part in this and accounts he said for some regional differences or preferences in high fidelity sound. Pass was able to articulate what each region likes. Some are a lot more challenging than others and l can vouch for that.

    One of the most impressive sets ups l have experienced was a Hong Kong gentleman’s system l was invited to hear. The way it often works there is they have descent size room in a big storage facility which is typically a high rise building. In it he had a pair of the 12 inch Tad monitors with the 2002 driver. But what he had was huge collection of turntables, arms and cartridges. He had studer mixer as the preamp and had them all connected. There were over a dozen really good turntables. This guy was the local “authority” on turntables. While l was there dealers from all over were calling him for advice. I was blown away by not just the sound quality but the diversity of what you might call flavours in sound. In your face, dynamics, big sound stage, warmth. I don’t recall which combo but one or two l really liked. It was an emotional connection with the music that l liked.

    I’m just slightly crazy as you know. Certifiable. My preferences are on the immersive characteristics. Pure bigger than life tone that makes windows resonate, realistic percussion accuracy (piano), vividness of string instruments, that being there feeling and open ended linearity which allows the sound to get bigger and bigger. Not necessarily louder. So l like big loudspeaker systems. I don’t do small. Sorry. Lol.

    Edit: Over the past few years l have collaborated with Greg Timbers and Nelson Pass on the design of analogue active frequency dividing networks.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    No worries.

    It’s obviously a new sound but is always useful to understand why? Your not imagining the difference and there are a certain combination of acoustic reasons for the differences. That was my point.

    The human ear is a funny gadget. It can discriminate a lot of things you just won’t see in a snapshot frequency response measurement on axis. The accuracy of the transducers (paper cones to metal diaphragms), the dynamic linearity of the system and a whole host of time domain interference that you can refer to as your room. At least half what you hear is your room and these 4429’s excite your room differently to the 4430. It may surprise you that l had the pleasure of listening to people who were shitty with their DD67000’s and have been so for years. On inspection and 7,000 km later it was their less than conscientious approach to listening to them that was the problem. They were just too freaking arrogant to recognise it. Some people who on the one hand are brilliant and have the means to acquire this stuff can also be the most stupid when it comes to appreciating it.

    Hi Fidelity Sound is not for everyone.
    Haha so what your saying is money doesn't make ya smart....just rich. Twits of the year contest anyone?

  14. #29
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Speaking of twits of the year!!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVYA3oTG8fg


    Rob
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

  15. #30
    Senior Member davidpou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    Speaking of twits of the year!!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVYA3oTG8fg


    Rob
    totally hilarious !

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