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Thread: Is home HIFI dead ???

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    That is quite a system you have there... pretty much, "the more is more" approach!

    Yep I remember Paul Klipsch recommending a wiring scheme to create a "mono" signal from a stereo signal... and for several years I had a McIntosh C28 with a mono center out.

    I am a big fan of Paul Klipsch and his work. I still have copies of some of the Dope From Hope flyers and I read his biography that was published in 2002. I have owned most of the Klipsch classics at one time or another. Heresy, Cornwall, LaScala, and a pair of Klipschorns. Decades ago before I could afford the real deal, I built Belle Klipsch clones. I really respect these vintage Klipsch systems, but I could never get any of them to fully satisfy me from an audio standpoint.

    I still have a pair of the K-400 horns and matching alnico drivers that came out of a pair of La Scalas that were originally at Radio City Music Hall. A friend salvaged them for me. One day I hope to make an "interesting" system with these horns.


    Widget
    OMG you just reminded me that I built that circuit way back then. As I recall it was simple. I still have the little grey box I mounted it in. I was surprised by the fact it was dead quite. Surprised with myself that is that it worked...lol. I was 19 I think. I actually don't recall what I used it on back then. I had a pair of A7's back then. But I don't remember having a center channel. So why did i make that box now...hmmmm. But I did make that box as it's in my collection of gear still....ah memories. I'm gonna dig it out now that I'm thinking of it.
    Yes it was from the Dope From hope papers. I still have the pile of them in a binder form. I'll snap a pic when I find them.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    That is quite a system you have there... pretty much, "the more is more" approach!


    Widget
    I've got an overload room with all my unused gear sorta stuff. Stuff I can't seem to part with. Stuff I rather treasure still. Stuff that was hard to find and easy to love. Speakers I mean
    So it's all setup as what I call the wall of sound. Now this is not a serious system at all. It was just a fun way to use stuff I didn't need in my other systems. But stuff I want to use still.
    This stuff...and yes it's all playing at once and sounds quite good for some strange reason. It shouldn't but it does.
    It's a bizarre mix
    2 tar filled Altec 1505's with Tad 4002 drivers
    2 JBL 500 potato mashers with JBL 2440 drivers on them
    2 JBL Baby Cheeks with 2425 drivers
    2 EV HR6040 horns with EV DH1012A's
    2 Vitavox Corner horn cabs with Beyma 15's
    2 Pioneer slant plate horns (fairly rare) with JBL 175 drivers.
    2 Electro voice sm120A with Ev 1824 drivers
    2 Electro voice ST350 tweeters
    1 Fatman 18 inch corner horn very very loud down to 18hz 108DB @ 1 watt
    2 EV 30W Woofers
    4 Tad 15 inch woofers TL 1603's
    2 JBL 12inch coaxials 2152H's
    2 Giant Emylar 4 inch throat horns...NO DRIVERS....just hanging there for show to scare children away.....ha
    Thats it....lol
    They all play too....yes insanity is a possibility

  3. #18
    Senior Member Ducatista47's Avatar
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    Re: Sound quality

    Two channel SQ is not quite as obscure as some make it out to be. Understandable for a speaker-centric site, but millions of the users of personal listening enjoy great sound. It is not always cheap earbuds and an iPhone.

    In the past most hifi shops carried both speakers and headphones, and it was not difficult to find customers who were wary of headphone demos because it would ruin the perception of SQ for the pricey speakers. A fifty dollar pair of headphones in the 1960s would bury the sq of thousand dollar speakers. Now both cost more, but the math still holds. A CD quality streaming service coupled with decent headphones or in ear monitors is giving countless users phenomenal listening experiences every day. I find it rather easy to find younger music fans who care very much about quality. They are just not into "stereos" in the baby boomer sense. But they are passionate about music and about it sounding great.

    It makes sense that personal listening's intimacy has won over most newer listeners. Whenever I experience communal listening people end up talking over the music at some point. No thanks. To a passionate listener that is a buzzkill. I might as well refer to my older post about this type of listening.

    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...udio-dinosaurs
    Information is not Knowledge; Knowledge is not Wisdom
    Too many audiophiles listen with their eyes instead of their ears


  4. #19
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    In response to Ian's post;

    You're right about concert venue. I try to sit 10-12 rows back, as close to the center as I can afford. That way I can hear the orchestra and the hall. Seattle has a great concert hall and here in Tacoma, not so good. Even so, I have found that with the addition of a center channel does fill the hole, and widens the sweet spot. It also depends on the recording. many classical recordings from the past were recorded in 3 channel, and many today are multi channel recordings. both Talarc and Reference Records have releases in multi channel.
    I also do have THE CHAIR, but I like to have my best beloved next to me on the small sofa.

    As far as some noisy waste of protoplasm chewing on cheezits, that generally doesn't happen in classical music. But what does happpen is that some schlub's cell phone goes off during a quiet part
    of a piece. And I do remember listening parties (......Hey come over and listen to my new speakers! You bring the beer.....) Sony SQ, and slide rules.

    Ed
    KEEP ON LISTENING!

  5. #20
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    Putting it all in perspective if you in fact set up your two channel system properly within the equilateral triangle l personally donít experience a hole. Itís not an easy thing to set up properly with precise level matching and absolute symmetry. Even with a multi way system the effect is an immersive experience for me. That is dictated to a degree by the way the stereophonic recording is produced and mixed.

    Do l prefer listening at home? It depends on whatís on in town. But with the worlds longest lockdown in Melbourne the concert hall was closed in recent times. I am more drawn to the authenticity of that live music in the shopping mall experience. To me itís about ďtoneĒ and the visceral acoustic presence of a musical instrument that causes the emotional connection.

    IMHO the centreís function is dialogue in movies. I have only heard a centre reproduce a musical sound via a JBL LS centre speaker with a $7,000 Acram receiver at home. Acram is part of the Harman Group. That thing was a less is more approach according to my industry connection. It was big jump on the SQ of your typical wonder box.

  6. #21
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    What kind of music do you listen too, Ian?
    KEEP ON LISTENING!

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    Putting it all in perspective if you in fact set up your two channel system properly within the equilateral triangle l personally don’t experience a hole. It’s not an easy thing to set up properly with precise level matching and absolute symmetry. Even with a multi way system the effect is an immersive experience for me. That is dictated to a degree by the way the stereophonic recording is produced and mixed.

    Do l prefer listening at home? It depends on what’s on in town. But with the worlds longest lockdown in Melbourne the concert hall was closed in recent times. I am more drawn to the authenticity of that live music in the shopping mall experience. To me it’s about “tone” and the visceral acoustic presence of a musical instrument that causes the emotional connection.

    IMHO the centre’s function is dialogue in movies. I have only heard a centre reproduce a musical sound via a JBL LS centre speaker with a $7,000 Acram receiver at home. Acram is part of the Harman Group. That thing was a less is more approach according to my industry connection. It was big jump on the SQ of your typical wonder box.
    I sure don't know much about live classical sound. But most of the club or concert or theater gigs I went to were not just simple stereo.
    Our local "big theater" place which is quite nice and has a lot of Altec horns and drivers. They do have a center setup in that place too.
    Or at other places the band always has speakers and amp setup across the stage usually. So the sound stage to me always seems pretty wide. I've never really seen live music presented as pure stereo. Sometime obviously, they only have a couple of pole speakers but that's not the scenario I mean. For instance is a big rock concert stereo? I don't honestly know that.
    I do know that the center channel just seems to round out the stage better for me. Turned at the exact perfect level as I think Ian mentioned.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Kreamer View Post
    What kind of music do you listen too, Ian?
    All sorts. Classic rock, blue grass, metal, southern blues, jazz, opera. I often listen to Miles Davis or sometimes Neil Young. I have a reasonable classical vinyl collection.

    If your into vinyl there are some excellent real analogue pressings out of Berlin. It comes down to the recording. I had the pleasure of listening to some amateur recordings on mini disk once. It was an eye opener to hear a relatively un compressed or processed live concert.

    One of Greg’s old clients in HK a retired banker does his own recordings on a studer reel to reel. Pretty cool stuff.

    I come back to Greg’s comments about the shopping centre experience. For me sun rises and sets on the unmistakable sound of live musical instruments.

  9. #24
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    Further thoughts on center channel;

    I think that a dedicated center channel for music is largely dependent on the recording being played back, and the speakers being used. As I stated earlier I have 3 identical speakers for the front, so there is no discrepancy in
    Loudspeaker characteristics. also my front channel is 60 degree angle between left and right with the center at 0 degrees from the listening position. I use a love seat style sofa ( not my Eames style chair) so that my wife can sit right beside me as I think that listening should be a team sport. So that is my set up, as close to optimal as I can get it in our smallish MCM house.

    I find that on 2 channel recordings the difference can be minimal to definite depending on the recording. On Multichannel recordings (SACD and blueray) what I'm looking for is there, Violins spread from left to center, woods and violas center,and brass and basses center to right.

    I recently had to be in Bellevue (Wa) for some business and since I was there visited a High End audio store. I had taken one of my SACDs. I was surprised to hear that the consultant hadn't heard a multichannel classical recording. I was somewhat vindicated that he found that the recording that I had brought, made the playback fill in what is normally missing in 2 channel classical recordings.

    In his book, Floyd Toole makes a comment that recording companies should list the recording methods and the engineers, layout and etc. Kudos to Telarc for doing so.

    Well, there it is colleagues, that's my story and I'm sticking too it.

    Except for one last thing;
    Ian if you are running M2's, all bets are off.

    Ed
    KEEP ON LISTENING!

  10. #25
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    My 2 cents on a center channel for both 2 channels and surround:

    I think the audience position is the most important factor. If there is a single listener who sits in the sweet spot, as long as your system doesn't suck, you should have a pretty solid center image. Alternatively if the audience is larger or the primary listening position is not in the sweet spot, then a dedicated center channel speaker can be very helpful.


    Widget

  11. #26
    Dang. Amateur speakerdave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    My 2 cents on a center channel for both 2 channels and surround:

    I think the audience position is the most important factor. If there is a single listener who sits in the sweet spot, as long as your system doesn't suck, you should have a pretty solid center image. Alternatively if the audience is larger or the primary listening position is not in the sweet spot, then a dedicated center channel speaker can be very helpful.


    Widget
    This is it. As I recall, PK's suggestion of a center channel was originally made for those whose K-horns were in corners at such a distance that the optimum 60 degree angle at the listening position was not possible.
    "Audio is filled with dangerous amateurs." --- Tim de Paravicini

  12. #27
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speakerdave View Post
    This is it. As I recall, PK's suggestion of a center channel was originally made for those whose K-horns were in corners at such a distance that the optimum 60 degree angle at the listening position was not possible.
    Yep, a special case, but one that is probably fairly common for corner loaded speakers.

    For those who want a deeper dive into the fundamentals of stereo, here is a particularly deep dive that is quite good: https://www.stereophile.com/content/stereo-image


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  13. #28
    Senior Member BMWCCA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speakerdave View Post
    This is it. As I recall, PK's suggestion of a center channel was originally made for those whose K-horns were in corners at such a distance that the optimum 60 degree angle at the listening position was not possible.
    To which PWK himself would likely have said "Bullsh*t"
    ". . . as you have no doubt noticed, no one told the 4345 that it can't work correctly so it does anyway."óGreg Timbers

  14. #29
    Dang. Amateur speakerdave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMWCCA View Post
    To which PWK himself would likely have said "Bullsh*t"
    Really? Why?
    "Audio is filled with dangerous amateurs." --- Tim de Paravicini

  15. #30
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speakerdave View Post
    This is it. As I recall, PK's suggestion of a center channel was originally made for those whose K-horns were in corners at such a distance that the optimum 60 degree angle at the listening position was not possible.
    Yes there was consideration of a third center channel. Have you ever listened to the old Living Presence mixes that were recorded with a third center channel from the 50's?? There were released on SACD years back and it sounds much better/fuller and much more spacious than the plain stereo versions.

    Rob
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