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Thread: Greg Timbers Interview

  1. #1
    Senior Member Champster's Avatar
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    Greg Timbers Interview

    I just found this interview on Erin's Audio Corner on YouTube.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afeTHLLp-EI
    JBL M2 & 2x SUB18s, BSS BLU800, VTV Purifi Amps, MiniDSP SHD Studio, PS Audio Perfect wave DAC

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    Senior Member BMWCCA's Avatar
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    Thanks. I'm enjoying it.

    Find it hard to believe the expert/host didn't know what an L250 is. You're supposed to do your homework prior to an interview: http://www.audioheritage.org/html/people/timbers.htm

    ". . . as you have no doubt noticed, no one told the 4345 that it can't work correctly so it does anyway."óGreg Timbers

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    Senior Member Champster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMWCCA View Post
    Thanks. I'm enjoying it.

    Find it hard to believe the expert/host didn't know what an L250 is. You're supposed to do your homework prior to an interview: http://www.audioheritage.org/html/people/timbers.htm

    Agreed. Erin seemed unprepared for that interview.
    JBL M2 & 2x SUB18s, BSS BLU800, VTV Purifi Amps, MiniDSP SHD Studio, PS Audio Perfect wave DAC

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    Dang. Amateur speakerdave's Avatar
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    Some highlights for me:

    I love it, in the context of the old penchant for Bose-bashing in these forums, that GT seemed intrigued by the basic idea of the BOSE 901 and said that if the shortcomings had been addressed, it could have become quite an interesting speaker. That is: 1) use higher quality drivers; 2) provide some decent-sounding electronics in the EQ box; 3) change the front single driver into a two-way with a tweeter because there is no way to get any decent treble by EQ'ing a five-inch full range.

    I liked hearing GT confirm one of my own biases, that tube amps are complementary to compression drivers and horns in some way that has not been fully explained (to paraphrase: because of the differences between the way tubes and solid state devices work).

    I liked that he allowed as how he "still" didn't know why some electronics seem to have good sound stage depth and others do not.

    I found his description of the 4660 horn design fascinating and also that the same ideas are included in the design of JBL's latest horns.

    I have long wondered about the risk of doppler distortion in the Tannoy coaxial, but I had never before seen the problem addressed. He also seemed to suggest that the projecting treble coaxial horn is so fraught it is beyond problematic.

    In talking about patents in audio and acoustics, he said that many recent patents have been awarded because of inadequate research of prior art and prior writings (Olsen in the 1920's) and that therefore the patents are not actually valid. He said that at JBL they sometimes thought it better to not patent something because then no one would know about it. He also said they did not try to protect some things they did because they were so expensive no one else would dare try to copy them—like close tolerances in compression drivers that led to yield problems, but making the gaps more relaxed caused frequency response anomalies which could not be remedied other ways. This makes me think of past conversations here about apparently unused drivers that people were buying on eBay.

    He has worked to get time alignment and linear phase in his music system. Though he does not say this explicitly, I think that for him these are the persuasive possibilities of digital electronics past the front end sources. I liked that he notes differences in digital music products when that does not seem strictly possible in the digital domain; this is an old conversation between my son and me.
    "Audio is filled with dangerous amateurs." --- Tim de Paravicini

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    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    I found it interesting that he ditched the Everest cabinets, kept the drivers and made his own cabinets because the Everest cabinet was holding him back! Love to get a better look at the horn he is using and wonder if he is using the 045Be in his speakers. They look cool a stubby L250 like arrangement.

    Rob
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    Glad you guys found this interview. I posted a link in another thread.

    Greg 3 D printed those horns. The idea was to line up the sides horizontally with centre under the screen.

    On the occasions when l have met Greg itís his granular understanding drivers and being able to explain exactly whatís occurring in a system thatís truly impressive. For example Greg is able to interpret the limitations of modelling large drivers such as the 2245 and then adopt specific measurement techniques to find the answers. He tells it how it is too.

    Greg is a world class loudspeaker engineer.

    What l thought was interesting is that Greg adopted an empirical approach to initial testing of system and networks in a listening room early in the development as apposed to predictive modelling using driver data collected in a test chamber. Greg used his ears early on to determine if a system it was going to gel or not.

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    Senior Member DavidF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    I found it interesting that he ditched the Everest cabinets, kept the drivers and made his own cabinets because the Everest cabinet was holding him back! Love to get a better look at the horn he is using and wonder if he is using the 045Be in his speakers. They look cool a stubby L250 like arrangement.

    Rob
    OK, now, if you watch the camera pan the side wall you will see a woofer looking back at you from within the fireplace. Better use for a fireplace in So. Cal, I suppose.
    David F
    San Jose

  8. #8
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    Glad you guys found this interview. I posted a link in another thread.

    Greg 3 D printed those horns. The idea was to line up the sides horizontally with centre under the screen.

    On the occasions when l have met Greg itís his granular understanding drivers and being able to explain exactly whatís occurring in a system thatís truly impressive. For example Greg is able to interpret the limitations of modelling large drivers such as the 2245 and then adopt specific measurement techniques to find the answers. He tells it how it is too.

    Greg is a world class loudspeaker engineer.

    What l thought was interesting is that Greg adopted an empirical approach to initial testing of system and networks in a listening room early in the development as apposed to predictive modelling using driver data collected in a test chamber. Greg used his ears early on to determine if a system it was going to gel or not.
    Hello Ian

    I have a couple of questions:

    Is he using he 045Be or just running the 476Be all the way out. Could he be using a 476Mg??

    What is the horn/waveguide based on?? Is it similar to the M2 where there is a constantly changing flare rate to reduce reflections?? Can't tell from the photo but it doesn't look that deep also like the M2/some PT waveguides. Is it symmetrical or asymmetrical vertical diffraction slot??

    Any chance of better look at them say a picture??

    Thanks Rob
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

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    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    I found it interesting that he ditched the Everest cabinets, kept the drivers and made his own cabinets because the Everest cabinet was holding him back! Love to get a better look at the horn he is using and wonder if he is using the 045Be in his speakers. They look cool a stubby L250 like arrangement.
    I am not surprised GT took this path. While I loved my Everests, I struggled to get them to play nicely in several rooms that I put them in. When I upgraded to the DD67000 Everest woofers the bottom end was better, but they still didn't have the clarity of a single 2216ND in the M2. I am sure that Greg's custom speakers are sonically an upgrade.

    While I love the aesthetics of the E2 series of Everests, my guess is that the spacing of the woofers and their height from the floor must have been the reason they were so difficult to get their best performance in so many rooms.

    I really enjoyed Greg's discussing a number of points:

    1. The "shopping mall live piano" demonstration of the importance of dynamics.
    2. How power compression in testing will affect measurements.
    3. His mention of the difference of opinion between the "Sean and Floyd guys" and his personal take on the importance of dynamics versus directivity.


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  10. #10
    Senior Member DavidF's Avatar
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    Yes, I would have liked to dive deeper on many points raised but it was also nice to hear from Greg after several years. I was fortunate to speak with him at the get-togethers hosted by Titanium Dome years back. Sounds like he has not lost his engineer's curiosity and willingness to engage new technology since leaving the Firm.
    David F
    San Jose

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    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    I am not surprised GT took this path. While I loved my Everests, I struggled to get them to play nicely in several rooms that I put them in. When I upgraded to the DD67000 Everest woofers the bottom end was better, but they still didn't have the clarity of a single 2216ND in the M2. I am sure that Greg's custom speakers are sonically an upgrade.

    While I love the aesthetics of the E2 series of Everests, my guess is that the spacing of the woofers and their height from the floor must have been the reason they were so difficult to get their best performance in so many rooms.

    I really enjoyed Greg's discussing a number of points:

    1. The "shopping mall live piano" demonstration of the importance of dynamics.
    2. How power compression in testing will affect measurements.
    3. His mention of the difference of opinion between the "Sean and Floyd guys" and his personal take on the importance of dynamics versus directivity.


    Widget

    Hello Widget

    I didn't realize the Everest's were difficult to integrate into a room. That does make sense though having the woofer's that low. Don't recall anyone complaining with 4435's but I do remember seeing several times they were up on stands.

    The elevator music comment from a previous interview always had me wondering it makes more sense now. Interesting about sine sweep vs MLSA.

    Yes there is something to be said about how relaxed and effortless dynamic speakers sound. I always liked the dynamics of the larger systems. I was a hold out on the large format drivers until I got a pair at home. Didn't think it would make a difference at the levels I listen at. Was I surprised when I hooked up the 476Mg's and got some listening time with them.

    Rob
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

  12. #12
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    Was I surprised when I hooked up the 476Mg's and got some listening time with them.
    That's my take.

    While the Revel Salons and the JBL M2's are both superior speakers in terms of directivity and measurements in general, to me they are less "real" than a properly executed system with a large 4" diaphragm compressions driver. The 476Be and 476Mg being pretty much the top of the heap.

    Not to say that a cone and dome system can't sound amazing and many do. However when done right the better compression driver systems can sound just a little more "real".


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    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speakerdave View Post
    Some highlights for me:

    I love it, in the context of the old penchant for Bose-bashing in these forums, that GT seemed intrigued by the basic idea of the BOSE 901 and said that if the shortcomings had been addressed, it could have become quite an interesting speaker. That is: 1) use higher quality drivers; 2) provide some decent-sounding electronics in the EQ box; 3) change the front single driver into a two-way with a tweeter because there is no way to get any decent treble by EQ'ing a five-inch full range.

    I liked hearing GT confirm one of my own biases, that tube amps are complementary to compression drivers and horns in some way that has not been fully explained (to paraphrase: because of the differences between the way tubes and solid state devices work).

    I liked that he allowed as how he "still" didn't know why some electronics seem to have good sound stage depth and others do not.

    I found his description of the 4660 horn design fascinating and also that the same ideas are included in the design of JBL's latest horns.

    I have long wondered about the risk of doppler distortion in the Tannoy coaxial, but I had never before seen the problem addressed. He also seemed to suggest that the projecting treble coaxial horn is so fraught it is beyond problematic.

    In talking about patents in audio and acoustics, he said that many recent patents have been awarded because of inadequate research of prior art and prior writings (Olsen in the 1920's) and that therefore the patents are not actually valid. He said that at JBL they sometimes thought it better to not patent something because then no one would know about it. He also said they did not try to protect some things they did because they were so expensive no one else would dare try to copy themólike close tolerances in compression drivers that led to yield problems, but making the gaps more relaxed caused frequency response anomalies which could not be remedied other ways. This makes me think of past conversations here about apparently unused drivers that people were buying on eBay.

    He has worked to get time alignment and linear phase in his music system. Though he does not say this explicitly, I think that for him these are the persuasive possibilities of digital electronics past the front end sources. I liked that he notes differences in digital music products when that does not seem strictly possible in the digital domain; this is an old conversation between my son and me.
    +1 on all counts.

    Specifically on the 901, the original used the same CTS 4.5" full range speaker that were used in the original Auratones. They were inexpensive little speakers that did not suck... and since there was no crossover with all of the phase shift and other issues associated with a multi-way speaker, there was a certain purity there. The 901s took this in an interesting direction. As GT pointed out using better electronics and adding a small tweeter to the front speakers could have been quite interesting.

    It was interesting to hear Greg's openness to unusual designs like the 901s and his discussion regarding the Carver open backed design.


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  14. #14
    Heather [Senorita member] hjames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Champster View Post
    I just found this interview on Erin's Audio Corner on YouTube.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afeTHLLp-EI
    Very nice! The redesigned Everest speakers were interesting.
    I'd like to know what the ceiling drivers were that he refers to with the dual 5" drivers and "toy horns" (mylar-like but not mylar diaphragms) ...
    2ch: RPi-4, Oppo, Acurus RL-11,Jolida 502,Valencias,JBL L212,Von Schw
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    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hjames View Post
    Very nice! The redesigned Everest speakers were interesting.
    I'd like to know what the ceiling drivers were that he refers to with the dual 5" drivers and "toy horns" (mylar-like but not mylar diaphragms) ...
    Here ya go... take a look at the wave guide. It is a mini original Everest/S3100 type wave guide.

    https://www.jblsynthesis.com/product...d=loudspeakers


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