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Thread: I Knew They Were Something Special

  1. #31
    Senior Member Ducatista47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    Not sure I could ever completely filter out the ticks and pops, but I get your point and agree completely about our personal onboard computer's ability to recalibrate the aural stimuli we call recoded playback. This is what allows us to hear music instead of analog screeches or dithered 1s and 0s.

    Heck, we can even listen to an old transistor radio with a 3 inch "full range" speaker and still hear the music... pretty remarkable really.

    Widget
    I could rephrase a little and say that I could hear the vinyl noise if I thought about it, but listening to music took my full aural attention and it was not within my realm of consciousness. I have very mild tinnitus and I never hear it unless I read "tinnitus" or someone mentions it in conversation. It was like that, so when hearing music on vinyl I really didn't notice it in the least.
    Information is not Knowledge; Knowledge is not Wisdom
    Too many audiophiles listen with their eyes instead of their ears


  2. #32
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    Hi Rob,


    I found the 604-8K spec sheet and your right. That was the 1992 spec.

    The stock Altec network still has that characteristic bump at 1500 hz that the 4310 mimics...
    I stumbled on this review from Audio Magazine of the AR LST 1 "studio monitor".

    "Summing up, the AR LST must be considered one of the best speaker systems now available. If only some of our recording studios can be persuaded to use them in preference to the "presence-peaked" monitors, maybe record quality would improve.
    -T.A. & G.W.T.
    (Audio magazine, Dec. 1972)"

    Reading that line made me think of this thread.

    Widget

  3. #33
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    Well l donít know about you but after l built my 4343ís in the early 80ís l reckon l could l could tell which recordings were mixed on JBL. They sounded more balanced and the bass was better.

    Some of my local bands were mixed Tannoys and they were also good.

    Around that time a number of large studios were being designed by Tom Hidley and my impression is recording studios lifted their game and recording got better.

    http://www.muzines.co.uk/articles/to...-designer/1649

    https://www.acousticfields.com/tom-h...ronment-rooms/

    https://www.audiotechnology.com/PDF/...Tom_Hidley.pdf

  4. #34
    Dang. Amateur speakerdave's Avatar
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    Uh huh. I would be interested to know exactly what you were hearing that was out of balance and in what direction. That is, by inference, what exactly you are inferring the reviewer meant was the effect of studios using "presence-peaked" monitors.
    "Audio is filled with dangerous amateurs." --- Tim de Paravicini

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by speakerdave View Post
    Uh huh. I would be interested to know exactly what you were hearing that was out of balance and in what direction. That is, by inference, what exactly you are inferring the reviewer meant was the effect of studios using "presence-peaked" monitors.
    Probably the signiture of the horn that can't be helped except with eq.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    Well l donít know about you but after l built my 4343ís in the early 80ís l reckon l could l could tell which recordings were mixed on JBL. They sounded more balanced and the bass was better.

    If you listen to Ambrosia, they recorded at Momma Jo's studio in North Hollywood on Altec Super Reds. We had rented the studio right after them and some of the equipment was still inplace (e.g., Baldwin electric harpsichord). This was my first exposure to the Super Reds and boy was I impressed.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambrosia_(band)



  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by toddalin View Post
    If you listen to Ambrosia, they recorded at Momma Jo's studio in North Hollywood on Altec Super Reds. We had rented the studio right after them and some of the equipment was still inplace (e.g., Baldwin electric harpsichord). This was my first exposure to the Super Reds and boy was I impressed.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambrosia_(band)



    Don't for get who produced it Alan Parsons. Always liked that album!

    Rob
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    I stumbled on this review from Audio Magazine of the AR LST 1 "studio monitor".

    "Summing up, the AR LST must be considered one of the best speaker systems now available. If only some of our recording studios can be persuaded to use them in preference to the "presence-peaked" monitors, maybe record quality would improve.
    -T.A. & G.W.T.
    (Audio magazine, Dec. 1972)"

    Reading that line made me think of this thread.

    Widget
    Hi Mr Widget,

    I do recall those AR LST models. As l recall they were well regarded acoustic suspension design but inefficient. Not cheap at the time either.

    On the other side of the Atlantic the BBC were developing small bookshelf monitors and B&W were starting to make inroads into the studio business. UK Studio builders like Reflection Arts were designing high powered 3/4 way dual 12Ē and quad 12Ē woofer systems using the 2123H midrange, a 2Ē Dynaudio dome upper midrange and 1 ď Dynaudio dome tweeter. Quested were also offering similar monitors.

    By similarity they were a high powered AR LST.

    So globally l donít think Altec had a caveat on the monitor business overall. In a certain time period like from mid 40ís to the late 60ís l have no doubt some biased US historians in the USA have the story right on the 604ís.

    But as Tom Hidley points out the studio business was evolving very quickly and it was a time of a word of mouth development. There was no www or email. Only those black phones. So l think some of what went on was quite regional in terms of preferences.

    The more serious players who could obtain finance had the likes of Tom Hidley design and build the whole package.

    On reflection (sorry) the 604ís would be lucky to get 50 hertz or anything below that at high power levels before exceeding their 4mm X max. Hence the dual helper woofer idea came into vogue with those huge Urei monitors and the JBL 4435.

    The quest for more accurate mixing of frequencies at 40 hertz and below with more advanced studios and monitors was certainly on the radar even in the vinyl era. This supports my comments that ďsomeĒ imported pressing on certain labels had obviously deeper, lower and louder bass reproduction.

    If you were wealthy and owned RTR magnums or something really exotic loud like transmission lines then loud low bass in a domestic home situation was a privilege. My diy bi amped 4343 clone at the time was a freak of nature. At one point l a had dual 2231H drivers per channel.

    With the 604ís in older designed studios the producer and engineer couldnít mix what they couldnít hear not that they cared. The 2235H in comparison was an extended bass woofer and with correct soffit mounting was a more linear and accurate LF transducer. JBL as l recall developed the 2230 for the 4350 and was a departure from the LE15A. It evolved into the 2235H. That 15 inch woofer became the de facto woofer in a number of JBL systems and custom monitors for a long time. Tad were in there but it was perhaps the upmarket alternative.

    For the SET HiFi brigade the 604 is an interesting option. But like with 5 watts or up to 12 watts thereís not to many full range loudspeaker with that kind of efficiency. The Lowthers were ten times more unbearable than the stock 604ís imho.

  9. #39
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    AR-LST Sensitivity is very low about 82 db 1 watt 1 meter. Power handling is also low. I remember when these first came out back in the day. Don't think I ever got to hear a pair. With the sensitivity and low power handling definitely not a "rock" monitor.

    Rob
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  10. #40
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    The quest for more accurate mixing of frequencies at 40 hertz and below with more advanced studios and monitors was certainly on the radar even in the vinyl era. This supports my comments that “some” imported pressing on certain labels had obviously deeper, lower and louder bass reproduction.
    Anyone know what Telarc used for monitors?? Just thinking of their 1812 and Pictures at an Exposition. Talk about bass response!!

    Rob

    Found it they used ADS BC-8/11 Monitors.
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    I stumbled on this review from Audio Magazine of the AR LST 1 "studio monitor".

    Widget
    That's a speaker I'm not familiar with. I appreciate that it has good off axis response, though I'd like to see 15 and 30 degrees also, as there could be lobing issues. I'm also not sure why he'd make the case for using them as studio monitors. The side mounted mids/tweeters are going to cause all kinds of early reflection issues in a typical small control room, and there has to be time domain issues with the design. They seem appropriate for the living room.

    Also, I just spent a good part of the day listening to a radio show of the American Songbook. Peaked or not, some of the finest recordings made including greats like Ella Fitzgerald, Sarah Vaughan, Blossom Dearie, Nat King Cole, and Sinatra were probably made using 604s in a plywood box. They were simple recordings and sound terrific by any measure, even by today's standard. The trouble didn't start until multi-tracking, Dolby, compressors, EQ, overdubbing and a multitude of other crap made its way into the control room.

    I do have a preference for the time aligned UREI monitors compared to the standard 604s. They are more coherent. Never heard the model Todd has but if it functions equivalently to the UREI crossover, it should be an improvement and equal to the early UREIs that used the 604.

  12. #42
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    I think itís all relative.

    Some of the early recording techniques were ďpureĒ with just two mics and a mobile control room.

    But itís the LF bandwidth and higher SPL l was referring to. In the earlier studios/ control rooms that wasnít fully considered.

    Back in the day a lot of advertising said the HiFi Sound Reproduction was from 20 to 20,000 hertz. But the 1st octave was not monitored or considered. A lot of those higher sensitivity systems back then were tuned to 45 hertz which meant they were -3 at 49-55 hertz or higher.

    In contrast the introduction of the 2230 drivers in the 4350 signalled much lower box tuning at 30 hertz opening up higher power handling down to 30 hertz. I have heard and compared a JBL 2220 driver to a similar system with a 2231A and itís night and day. Itís those lower frequencies that add whatís missing to a what might be termed low frequency linearity. A 604 will sound louder with the volume up. The 2231A will sound bigger and louder.

  13. #43
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    If your wondering l am giving the 604ís a flogging.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    AR-LST Sensitivity is very low about 82 db 1 watt 1 meter. Power handling is also low. I remember when these first came out back in the day. Don't think I ever got to hear a pair. With the sensitivity and low power handling definitely not a "rock" monitor.

    Rob
    Hey Rob

    Those LST systems were not DC coupled. Check out the return path to the input terminals.
    I suspect they used a high compliance woofer that would easily bottom with turn on/off thumps and those high capacitor values offered some immunity to that and turntable rumble.

  15. #45
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rusty jefferson View Post
    That's a speaker I'm not familiar with. I appreciate that it has good off axis response, though I'd like to see 15 and 30 degrees also, as there could be lobing issues. I'm also not sure why he'd make the case for using them as studio monitors. The side mounted mids/tweeters are going to cause all kinds of early reflection issues in a typical small control room, and there has to be time domain issues with the design. They seem appropriate for the living room.
    Realize that review was in 1972. We have come a long way since then.

    These speakers are essentially clones of the famous AR3a with added tweeters and mids. Obviously the geometry is different as well, but back in the late '60s and early '70s the AR3a was considered one of the finest speakers by most listeners with the main criticism that it was a bit rolled off and polite up top. I imagine adding a second mid and three more tweeters brought up the top end.


    Widget

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