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Thread: Need help selecting drivers for DIY 3 way or 4 way music/home theater speakers

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by toddalin View Post
    Never heard of a 251J and don't see specs on it anywhere though the cooling fins look to be substantially longer than the 2251J.

    The 2251J is a nice match for the Heil and while an MTM would be cool, it is really not necessary. Run at its own impediance level (~3.3-3.7 ohms), the Heil will be a bit loud for one 2251J if it is not padded down a bit. It may be be just about perfect for an MTM arrangement without padding. BTW, the Heils really like/need a high current solid state amp.

    Crossing the Heil over at 1kHz is a mistake. It's just too low and my Heil would "complain" where it interfaces with the 2251 at less than ~1,500 Hz. I bring it in at 2,150 hz and it really likes that. Keep it over 2kHz unless you use a steep slope on the crossover.

    The 2251J has a natural rolloff below 300 Hz. Just forget about it going down to meet a subwoofer. Ain't gonna happen. Maybe this is where the 251J accels.

    But, will the 251J run up high enough to meet the Heil at >2khz? The 2251J goes well over 4kHz and actually gets louder in this range so the 2,150 Hz crossover is no problem, and this is actually where the volume would normally be increasing. Still, there are those that would say that this is too high a frequency for a ~10" speaker based on the wavelength.

    I subscribe to the theory that I always sit in the sweet spot and that crossing over @>2kHz keeps all of the fundementals in the 2251J adding a sense of coherency, soundstage, and imaging.

    I like the 2241H for the bass because the accordion edge and relatively light cone give the woofer "speed" thereby letting the texture of bass instruments come through. The 2241H is actually rated from 30 Hz - 3kHz and I cross it over at 300 Hz. I run these as 2.5 ways and let the 2251 naturally roll off on the low end. I don't put the 2251 through a cap.

    If you want to do this passively, this schematic will get you there. BTW, I typically run the L-pads at their max settings for the flattest response unless the music has lots of HF noise in which case I may turn down the Heil a bit.








    This shows the nearfield spectrum for the 2251J. The dip at ~800 Hz is from a cabinet resonance/reflection, and I think a bit more insulation will take it out. It was much worse, with a subsequent peak, before I insulated the interior back of the cabinet, and I will try to do the sides in the near future to remove the remainder.

    Typical 30 dB span:

    Thank you for showing me all of your work so far. Saves me a good deal of time. Iíve collected together my drivers. I have the 2242Hs (curious how theyíd compare to your 2241s) and Iím really wanting to try the 251Js, I have all 6 on hand, Iím really hoping to use 2 per speaker. Iíll have to measure them, but itís nice to see that the specs were posted. They seem to be a very nice driver. I should be able to cross them lower to the 2242 and they should hopefully still play cleanly up high.

    Only reason I suggested the 1000hz crossover point to the Heil was because that is the crossover point itís used in the AMT-1B. Iím not sure if the 251J could go to 2250hz. Really dig your setup!

    Dan

  2. #32
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    Wanted to get the drivers together to see what yíall think. So definitely going to be going with the 2242H. In the boxes they have parameters and such to help get me started. Next Iím really thinking Iíd like to use a pair of the 251Js.

    Now to the tweeter. I donít have to use the Heil and it may actually not work if the 251J wonít play high enough. I saw the member using the Heil said he built something to black the rear radiating wave. Thatís kind of a bummer for me as thatís what I really appreciate about the Heil.

    so other tweeter options: I have some 2426Js with few different types of horns and I have some 2405s. Maybe use both, using the 2405 as a super tweeter so I donít miss that Summit treble too much lol??? Does that sound like a better option than the Heil? Probably for movie playback. I laid the drivers out to get a feel of the look, opinions?
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    Dan

  3. #33
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    Hmmmmm not sure why some of the photos are appearing sidewaysÖ

    Here are some different horn options I have. I donít know how low you can safely cross the 2426, hopefully low enough to meet the 10s. But curious if any of these horns might be best for ďhigh midsĒ. Not pictured, I also have the baby butt horns.

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    Hopefully the pics show up well enough to know what youíre looking at.

    Dan

  4. #34
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    A few more pics of the layout with the different horns in place.

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    Dan

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCSGuy View Post
    Hereís a link to Widgetís latest (?) build:
    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...Project-Widget

    Is your woofer a SUB1500 or a W1500H? The SUB1500 wasnít used in much; one sub for the Japanese market (HB1500), and one for the European market TiK series. I donít remember if Revel used that driver in any of their products, and I donít know if Harman knew they had a problem before they sold their stock of raw drivers to Parts Express, which is where all of us got them. However, they knew there were problems, as they redesigned the driver to the W1500H, which is what is in the Array1500 sub, Japanese HB5000 sub, and probably some Revel stuff that hit the market, unlike the prototype Revel sub in my avatar, which used the W1500H, but never made it to market. I think the spider was coming unglued where it connected with the VC former on the SUB1500, but I donít really remember. Either way, if youíre going to use it in a large ported box, you should be OK, small sealed box with lots of EQ, like a factory would do, is probably where you could have issues if youíre pushing volume. If youíre going to use a small sealed box for music because of sound quality, fine, I think Iíd either use multiples (I use 4), or keep the volume and excursion low.
    So the 3 drivers I have are indeed the sub1500s from the PE stock. Thank you for the link to Widgetís build. Would be cool to do something similar, used super nice TAD drivers though, wayyyyyy out of my budget. Anyways I think Iíd like to use the 18s I have anyways and run the sub1500s for sub duty. Iím thinking the only really large ported cabinets will be for the Dayton Ultimaxs. The sub1500 for music could be sealed or ported, whichever is best for the driver, hopefully not too large though. Be nice to find one more.

    Dan

  6. #36
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    Random suggestions. Avoid the radial horns, they are no match for constant directivity designs. The 2370 is a better sounding horn than either of them but if you do indeed have a set of 2344s those are better sounding yet if you want a large listening area for home stereo use. Don't array the 10" mid drivers horizontally. At the 1200 -1600 hz crossover point you're likely to be running you want the phase issues that multiple mid drivers incur to happen in the vertical plane rather than the horizontal plane.

  7. #37
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    Amazing to me how two "10-inch" cones are not as wide as a single 18 inch cone. As I noted in another post, you can't use 10" in the Weems calculations


  8. #38
    Senior Member HCSGuy's Avatar
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    This is a hobby because there is no one correct answer - the only thing youíre going to get agreement on is that MDF is still too expensive

    That said, build a test box for one of your 10ís and a woofer, and put together a simple 3-way with your Heil so you can do some listening and see if thereís anything that is satisfying to you in that set. If the Heil gives you goose bumps, chase a solution that uses it. If not, try a horn. Have fun and experiment.
    That the internet contains a blog documenting your life does not constitute proof that your existence is valid. Sorry.

  9. #39
    Senior Member 1audiohack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saabracer23 View Post
    Hmmmmm not sure why some of the photos are appearing sidewaysÖ

    Here are some different horn options I have. Name:  C8AA6E88-3620-43EC-B462-14145E843868.jpg
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    Hopefully the pics show up well enough to know what youíre looking at.

    Dan
    Looks like a Community SRH90? I really like those but I use them from 5kHz and up. I havenít tried them looking to see how low I could like them.

    Barry.
    If we knew what the hell we were doing, we wouldn't call it research would we.

  10. #40
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riley Casey View Post
    Avoid the radial horns, they are no match for constant directivity designs. The 2370 is a better sounding horn than either of them but if you do indeed have a set of 2344s those are better sounding yet if you want a large listening area for home stereo use.
    Disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by HCSGuy View Post
    That said, build a test box for one of your 10’s and a woofer, and put together a simple 3-way with your Heil so you can do some listening and see if there’s anything that is satisfying to you in that set. If the Heil gives you goose bumps, chase a solution that uses it. If not, try a horn. Have fun and experiment.
    Agree.


    Widget

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by saabracer23 View Post
    So the 3 drivers I have are indeed the sub1500s from the PE stock. Thank you for the link to Widgetís build. Would be cool to do something similar, used super nice TAD drivers though, wayyyyyy out of my budget. Anyways I think Iíd like to use the 18s I have anyways and run the sub1500s for sub duty. Iím thinking the only really large ported cabinets will be for the Dayton Ultimaxs. The sub1500 for music could be sealed or ported, whichever is best for the driver, hopefully not too large though. Be nice to find one more.

    Dan
    Hi Dan,

    Your having fun with all these ideas.

    But donít over think the project before you start with some real indications from the bass.

    The unknown unknown is often the mid range. Therefore if you focus on the bass then that becomes the dependency for everything else.

    Btw you might find the 2242ís more than meet your needs.

    My suggestion is to apply a single 251 mid with an active crossover at 250-350 hertz and see what your ears tell you. If you need a pair of mids then your Heil needs to keep up.

    To put some perspective on this a while back the Klipschorn guys were doing upgrades with dual JBL 2123Jís to great effect. Leagues better then those Klipschorn mid drivers.

    With high sensitivity systems itís about impact, dynamic range and low distortion. Less so imaging and all the Stereophile hype. Itís front row seats at a club in SF.

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