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Thread: Just bought S2600

  1. #1
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    Lightbulb Just bought S2600

    Hello,

    Well, i'm new to the forum. Time for the first post i guess...

    I just bought a pair of S2600. It's my second pair. I sold the first pair when moving to a smaller house. Bought a new house now, so room for real speakers again...
    I'm wondering if any of you have experience with this speaker.
    I'm particulary interested in tips for driving the speakers (bi-amping?? if so any amp suggestions?) and upgrading.

    My first plan is to drive the speaker with a 2x18w single ended tube amp.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Bernard Wolf's Avatar
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    Hello Peterr. Welcome to Lansing Heritage Forum !

    I have owned the S/3100 for 5 or 6 years now. As this is esentially the same as the 2800 only with a 15" bass driver I can tell you what I have found. I drive my 3100 with a 30 watt PP Jadis Defy intergrated amp. I use a Sony CDPXA7ES CD and either a Thorens TD124 or VPI MKIV/Audio Note M2 for source. I have driven the 3100 with a 3 watt SE amp - home brew - and many other low powered amps such as a Wavac 811A (18watts) and Leak Stereo 20 in pentode (10watts) and triode (4 watts) . I have also used higher powered SS amps such as H/K Citation and Marantz DC170/ 2345. Because of the type of listening that I do power has never been an issue. As I listen in a large room - 700 sq. ft. but at maybe 80-85 db max, all of the amps including the flea powered ones worked just fine. I might mention though that every one of these amps sounded different, which made it a long and still ongoing experience and, I might add, FUN!

    I did find that when listening to demanding bass heavy music played loud that the higher powered SS amps certainly did deliver with much more authority. Thus I have tried bi-amping with the tubes on top and the SS on bottom. The only thing is that with such a relatively, for this purpose, highish crossover -650 hz - you really do end up hearing mostly the SS bass driver. Now never having had access to a high powered refined - read expensive - SS amp I cannot coment on how this would work but ultimately I have gone back time and again to just the Jadis running full range. The Jaddis just plain does better in presenting the music in a more pleasing way. So, in answer to your question I would say... enjoy your fine transducers and get the best possible amp you can as you will certainly hear all it has to offer through the S/2800.

    Bernard

  3. #3
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    Thanks for the response Bernard.

    The amp i currently own is an Audionote P2SE with some changes (blackgates, silver internal wiring here and there, no standard tubes, other small changes), the partner of your M2. I'm a little in doubt of buying a second P2 to bi-amp or buying one new amp, trading in the P2. So i thought i'd ask around what kind of stuff you all have hooked up to your JBL's to narrow the search. And just because i'm interested in the experiences of other S2600/3100 users.

  4. #4
    Senior Member spirou38's Avatar
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    He Peterr,

    A few monthes ago, I owned a pair of S2600 and a pair of S3100MKII . There is not a great difference when bi-amping S2600 or S3100 if you don't modify the filter (what I didn't know when I tried for the first time) : you have to bypass the choke that is connected to the woofer. It's not very difficult to do ; you can add a switch that is used to bypass the choke when you bi-amp and to keep the choke when mono-amping.

    A friend of mine who tweaked his S3100 told me that there is another great modification to do : you have to glue a lead sheet all around the 2426H horn. He did it with 2 millimeters of lead. But he said that it is not very easy because you first have to dismount the woofer so that you can dismount the 2426H "leg" from the cabinet, and finally dismount the horn with the attached driver. An because of the weight of the lead, you are obliged to secure the mounting of the 2426. But if you don't have two left hands ... it is not too difficult.

    Pascal
    Spirou38 JBL 4344MKII 4333A 4312MKII L80T L40 L20T Ti2000

  5. #5
    Senior Member Bernard Wolf's Avatar
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    Peterr

    That Audio Note PS2E is the Soro, no ? I also owned that amp for quite awhile but that was before the JBL's so I can't really comment other than to say that I found the Soro to be a fine sounding and powerful amp for the wattage. I use it with a pair of Quad 57's and the amp that the Sorro replaced was a Marant 8b/7 preamp combo. I thought the Sorro much better and particularily in the Bass. I sold the Marantz and kept the Sorro only to repalce it with the Wavac 811A which I used with the 3100, but I never did get to hear the AN with the JBL's and kind of wish I had. I don't see where bi-amping with another Sorro would do much for you. I recently was running the 3100 with a Marantz DC170 just for fun and the meters at normal listening levels were not showing even 1 watt, although at very high levels they did manage to hit 80 or so but this was at very, very high levels.... me with earplugs on . I will say though that the Marantz 2345(?) with 125 watts a side sure did rock the house ! Just a bit too unrefined for my listening though.

    Amps I have used with the S/3100: Messa Tigris, various Marantz as mentioned, Audio Note Kit One (SE), AN Sorro(SE), Kron 18i (SE), Wavac 811A (SE) Meitner Mono Blocks(SS/PP), Leak Stereo 20 (PP), HK Citation 16(SS/PP), Pass Aleph (SS/SE), Golden Audio (SE). I've probably missed a few as it has been awile now.

    All of these amps sounded different and it was real easy to hear the difference as the JBL's are quite revealing. Most did well enough in the Bass and some more so than others but what I was looking for was life and timbral richness in the midrange as well as solid tight Bass. All of the SE amps had that 'magic' in the mids to varying degree and although the Jadis, which is PP might not quite pull that off in the mids in the end it was the amp that did it all for me because it was much better in the bass, so much so that I had to totally re-position the 3100 to make up for the 'extra' bass I was getting! If the 3100 was a three way and crossed over much lower I would use SS for ther Bass, but, no can do.

    As for improvements, I don't know. Short of a sub-woofer and super-tweeter, thus becoming a 4-way I don't think there is much you can do as the speaker works very well as is from the factory,,, surprise !!

    I have a few pipe dreams though that I will share with you later.

    Bernard

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernard Wolf
    Peterr

    That Audio Note PS2E is the Soro, no ? I also owned that amp for quite awhile but that was before the JBL's so I can't really comment other than to say that I found the Soro to be a fine sounding and powerful amp for the wattage. I use it with a pair of Quad 57's and the amp that the Sorro replaced was a Marant 8b/7 preamp combo. I thought the Sorro much better and particularily in the Bass. I sold the Marantz and kept the Sorro only to repalce it with the Wavac 811A which I used with the 3100, but I never did get to hear the AN with the JBL's and kind of wish I had. I don't see where bi-amping with another Sorro would do much for you. I recently was running the 3100 with a Marantz DC170 just for fun and the meters at normal listening levels were not showing even 1 watt, although at very high levels they did manage to hit 80 or so but this was at very, very high levels.... me with earplugs on . I will say though that the Marantz 2345(?) with 125 watts a side sure did rock the house ! Just a bit too unrefined for my listening though.

    Amps I have used with the S/3100: Messa Tigris, various Marantz as mentioned, Audio Note Kit One (SE), AN Sorro(SE), Kron 18i (SE), Wavac 811A (SE) Meitner Mono Blocks(SS/PP), Leak Stereo 20 (PP), HK Citation 16(SS/PP), Pass Aleph (SS/SE), Golden Audio (SE). I've probably missed a few as it has been awile now.

    All of these amps sounded different and it was real easy to hear the difference as the JBL's are quite revealing. Most did well enough in the Bass and some more so than others but what I was looking for was life and timbral richness in the midrange as well as solid tight Bass. All of the SE amps had that 'magic' in the mids to varying degree and although the Jadis, which is PP might not quite pull that off in the mids in the end it was the amp that did it all for me because it was much better in the bass, so much so that I had to totally re-position the 3100 to make up for the 'extra' bass I was getting! If the 3100 was a three way and crossed over much lower I would use SS for ther Bass, but, no can do.

    As for improvements, I don't know. Short of a sub-woofer and super-tweeter, thus becoming a 4-way I don't think there is much you can do as the speaker works very well as is from the factory,,, surprise !!

    I have a few pipe dreams though that I will share with you later.

    Bernard
    Yes, the P2SE is essentialy the Soro without the pre-amp though. The combi with the JBL's works just fine. I already had the P2 the previous time I owned S2600. So I already know what i'm gonna start of with, nothin wrong with that, but always looking for improvement.

    I totaly know what you mean when you're talking bout the SE magic in mid-range. Very seductive. I'm very interested in your experiences with the Kit1 on the 3100. Not underpowered? The Kit1 is a 300b right? So that's 2x8 watts of pure silk.

    On the subject of SS: i'm a bit tempted to try a McIntosh on the JBL's.

    @Spirou38

    Thanks for your reply. Your comment on the bi-amping is very helpfull.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Bernard Wolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peterr
    I totaly know what you mean when you're talking bout the SE magic in mid-range. Very seductive. I'm very interested in your experiences with the Kit1 on the 3100. Not underpowered? The Kit1 is a 300b right? So that's 2x8 watts of pure silk.

    On the subject of SS: i'm a bit tempted to try a McIntosh on the JBL's.

    .
    The Audio Note Kit One is a 300b 8 watt SE Amp. I found it to be a very competent amp in that it was not too euphonic. You know, some people say that SE amps in general are a colouration - thus terms such as silky, golden, honeyed and so on. I don't know if I always agree although the Golded Audio 300b I listened to was truly 'liquid golden honey'. It made music sound totally different than I had ever heard it before.

    The AN I would call silky as that is an apt desciption. I did not find it underpowered for my listening needs just as I did not find the Leak Stereo 20 at 4 watts strapped in triode underpowered. However, you do loose the 'heft' that the JBL's are capapble of when you go that route. I liked the AN very mutch, more so even than my Wavac 811A even, but I did have a problem with it as with almost all of the SE amps I have tried in my house, with hum. I am certain this is a problem in part due to the electricity in my house. I heard the same amp 5 blocks away in a new division on even higher sensitivity horns and there was no hum. In part, because of this particular problem I have stayed away from Single Ended amps. Push Pull tube and SS amps have alieviated this problem for me.

    If you have a chance to try the Macintosh go for it. As great sounding as these SE and lowish powered tube amps can be there is something about driving these things with high power and current that is really appealing. Depends on the type of music you listen to. I listen to pretty mutch anything under the sun what with 3000 lp's here at home and a used book and record store that I run. I also like some industrial/gothic/ambient now and then and those synth bass notes do deserve current !

    Would be nice to have 3 or 4 different amps to change as the mood strickes, or better yet 2 or 3 diferent rooms configured for different styles of music/listening .... I'm sure thats been done around these parts

    Bernard

  8. #8
    Senior Member Bernard Wolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirou38
    A friend of mine who tweaked his S3100 told me that there is another great modification to do : you have to glue a lead sheet all around the 2426H horn. He did it with 2 millimeters of lead. But he said that it is not very easy because you first have to dismount the woofer so that you can dismount the 2426H "leg" from the cabinet, and finally dismount the horn with the attached driver. An because of the weight of the lead, you are obliged to secure the mounting of the 2426. But if you don't have two left hands ... it is not too difficult.
    Pascal
    Hi Pascal - we have covered this before and I always kind of wondered about the need but I recently 'discovered' that on the Paragon they closed off the bass box from the horn to ensure the horn was not affected by the back pressure from the bass driver, so , I guess there is something in it. Does sound like a bit of a chore though. Where the hell do you get sheets of lead and how do you attach them? On the same subject - vibration - this brings up an idea that I have been thinking of for awhile now which is to take the crossover out of the cabinet and position them behind the amp instead and then run bi-wires to the cab. You would think that the bass vibrations inside the cab must affect the crossovers, no ?

    Bernard

  9. #9
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    A variety of high- and low-tech vibration damping materials, many of them self-adhesive (), are used in the mobile audio industry to tame vehicle panel resonances.

    There is an extensive science of vibration control engineering: You cut these "leaden" composite plastics with a pair of scissors, peel the backing, and stick them on as required to achieve the desired effect.

    Paintable (loosely termed) "goops" are also available. Check the car audio installation catalogs and industrial suppliers such as McMaster-Carr.

  10. #10
    Senior Member spirou38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernard Wolf
    Hi Pascal - we have covered this before and I always kind of wondered about the need but I recently 'discovered' that on the Paragon they closed off the bass box from the horn to ensure the horn was not affected by the back pressure from the bass driver, so , I guess there is something in it. Does sound like a bit of a chore though. Where the hell do you get sheets of lead and how do you attach them? On the same subject - vibration - this brings up an idea that I have been thinking of for awhile now which is to take the crossover out of the cabinet and position them behind the amp instead and then run bi-wires to the cab. You would think that the bass vibrations inside the cab must affect the crossovers, no ?

    Bernard
    Hi Bernard,

    Happy new year to everybody on the forum .

    About lead, In France, it is currently always possible to buy sheets of lead ( they are often 1 mm, 1.5 mm, 2mm, 3 mm thick ), but the law says that you can't use lead in your home ! Thus lead is very good for sound improvement and sonic insulation but very bad for health.

    I know that my friend first tried with silicon but the sheets were too heavy, so he had to find another solution and I think that he attached those sheets with someting that is like a cold glue that I will try to translate by "cold residual bitumen" which is very hard to find in France ( if you can get the correct translation, the french words are "brai froid de pétrole" ).

    About taking out the filters from the cabinets and putting them very close to the amps, I know that this tweak has been often used in France, mainly when adding an external 2405H on the S2600 / S3100 / S3100MKII, but I don't know if it is because of the influence of vibrations. Could it be because of the damping factor ?

    Pascal
    Spirou38 JBL 4344MKII 4333A 4312MKII L80T L40 L20T Ti2000

  11. #11
    Senior Member Bernard Wolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirou38
    About taking out the filters from the cabinets and putting them very close to the amps, I know that this tweak has been often used in France, mainly when adding an external 2405H on the S2600 / S3100 / S3100MKII, but I don't know if it is because of the influence of vibrations. Could it be because of the damping factor ?

    Pascal
    Hi Pascal - just wondering how taking out the x'over could possibly affect the damping factor ? Is this not the preserve of the driving Amplifier ? The reason I ask is that I did just take out the x'over and I do find that the bass seems 'better' somehow although I can't say exactly how....

    Bernard
    Last edited by Bernard Wolf; 01-19-2005 at 09:19 AM. Reason: more

  12. #12
    korgroenewoud
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    S2600

    Hello Peter,

    Nice to see you on the forum. I will invite you to have a listeningsession with my JBL S 3100 MK II on Mcintosh amps. You will hear all there is to hear.

    Kor

    P.S. Kom mor eevn he!

  13. #13
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    Kor,

    Thanks a lot for the invitation. I'm looking forward to it.
    Any luck with the sale and the replacements you were thinking about? (kost 'n poar cent'n moar den he je ook wat)

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