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Thread: JBL 4430 Speakers

  1. #31
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    I suggest trying the 4430 as it is then for a while with your new networks.

    If you lust for further sonic enhancement the road ahead splits two ways:

    1. Install a Radian one inch compression driver with a BE Diaphragm.

    2. Add the JBL 2123H 10 inch mid driver making it a very nice 3 way system (which I have used myself with great success)

    I do not recommend adding a UHF driver to supplement the bi radial horn.

    After that its another loudspeaker design .
    https://klappav.com.au/collections/jbl?page=1

  2. #32
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    I can underscore door number two there. I've been listening to 12" mid bass ( either 2202s or 2206s ) between 15" lows and 2416 drivers on 2344 horns for close to ten years now. The improvement over the 4430 fifteen inch woofer to one inch driver transition is well worth going three way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    I suggest trying the 4430 as it is then for a while with your new networks.

    If you lust for further sonic enhancement the road ahead splits two ways:

    1. Install a Radian one inch compression driver with a BE Diaphragm.

    2. Add the JBL 2123H 10 inch mid driver making it a very nice 3 way system (which I have used myself with great success)

    I do not recommend adding a UHF driver to supplement the bi radial horn.

    After that its another loudspeaker design .
    https://klappav.com.au/collections/jbl?page=1

  3. #33
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    Either that or make up a Tad style enclosure for the 2335H and grab. Joseph Crowe bi radial horn which based on tests is the NexGen Tad 4001 horn. Joseph can design the throat to match your driver. Remove the mass ring, retune with modest bass boost and you are done. These forms are excellent for diy giving predictable results with Joseph’s technical support. 800 hertz, 290 hertz and custom horns available to order.

    https://josephcrowe.com/collections/...dial-wood-horn

  4. #34
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    Dave,

    may I show you my own networks for a 4430 clone project that I built two and a half years ago:

    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...ect&highlight=

    As you see, I didn't use any expensive boutique parts, as I don't believe in capacitor sound (even less in the improvement of »charge coupling«). Instead, any capacitors are from surplus, and they were cheap. But they all are polypropylene or polystyrene, physically the best film dielectrics one can buy. I individually measured a large stack of capacitors and paralleld them to get the right values, where necessary. I opted for cored inductors for both the bigger values, bought the next higher stock values and unwound them to the right inductance, using my DeRee DR5000 component tester (i.e. 2.7 mH -> 2.6 mH, 1.8 mH -> 1.6 mH, and 50 µH -> 40 µH, respectively).

    Especially for the big LPF inductors I chose the ones with the smallest DC resistance that I've found, due to reasons already mentioned in this thread. I didn't find air cored inductors with DC resistance that even approached the onesI used (0.11 ohms).

    Finally, it is very important to orientate the inductor axes perpenducularly to each other, see my pics.

    Best regards!

  5. #35
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    Half Way There!

    Hi All,

    Thank you very kindly for your suggestions and helpful hints. Some day, I would love to try to morph the 4430's to a three way with a 10" driver. But then again if I decide to go all out, then I will probably decide to try something completely different (cue Monty Python!). I have had many speakers in my time and I really liked the JBL L200t3's that I picked up relatively cheap at a local thrift store. I upgraded the crossover to great effect and after having them for several years, decided to make the plunge and buy some 4430's that were for sale very near me. The woofer cones were ok but the surrounds were in very bad shape. I went ahead and re-coned them myself with simply speaker cones and put the mass ring in. The SS cones, voice coil and voice coil former were noticeably lighter then the OEM cones and I had my doubts. But, I was very happy with the end result and the improvement in the lower midrange. How much of that was due to the bad surrounds on the original, I have no way of knowing. Anyway, I really liked the way the 4430's sounded and intrigued by how good I could get a 2 way speaker to sound. I just finished up with the first phase of building new charged coupled crossovers. By first phase, I mean I built the high pass section of the crossover. I am still waiting on an inductor for the woofer and it is on a slow boat from China or something. Basically I am dividing the network into two parts so I can still use the original crossover for the woofer. My new crossover is installed on the bottom part of a speaker stand I built. I did this to make sure I did not change or alter the original speaker save new high quality binding posts. I also put in 12 gauge ofc copper wire for good measure. I am not an expert and certainly not a certified speaker reviewer, but I do have to comment that the high pass section of the crossover sounds vastly improved to my ears compared to the stock. By vastly improved, I mean way less distortion and a noticeable reduction of harshness and "grit". I would also add to that that the sound is "velvety", smooth, more detailed and more dynamic. Symbols and percussion have become more alive as well as vocals. I like the 4430's to begin with because, to my ears. they are non-fatiguing, and now, they are even more immersive. I am not sure if this is due to new capacitors, inductors, resistors and lower gauge wire, or if the magic is in the charged coupled configuration. I don't know, but just rebuilding the top end of these speakers has opened up for me a whole new experience of enjoyment and musical bliss. I am certainly aware that there is an almost endless array out there regarding speakers, drivers, driver arrangement and engineers, but I am actually very happy with what a modest investment has done to "hotrod" these speakers. I am thinking I will "borrow" the existing 2.6 mH inductor from the stock crossover and go ahead a build the low pass filter with the charged coupled caps. Then, when the new inductor comes in I can just swap it out. I began this journey to experience for myself what all the fuss was about with charge coupled crossovers and I can say that it is worth it for me. It may not be for everyone but my ears certainly could tell a monumental difference and they are very happy indeed! Shout out to Ian for all his help and guidance with this project. Without his help I probably would have blown up the speaker or had a mental short circuit!

  6. #36
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    Wow!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay Pirinha View Post
    Dave,

    may I show you my own networks for a 4430 clone project that I built two and a half years ago:

    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...ect&highlight=

    As you see, I didn't use any expensive boutique parts, as I don't believe in capacitor sound (even less in the improvement of »charge coupling«). Instead, any capacitors are from surplus, and they were cheap. But they all are polypropylene or polystyrene, physically the best film dielectrics one can buy. I individually measured a large stack of capacitors and paralleld them to get the right values, where necessary. I opted for cored inductors for both the bigger values, bought the next higher stock values and unwound them to the right inductance, using my DeRee DR5000 component tester (i.e. 2.7 mH -> 2.6 mH, 1.8 mH -> 1.6 mH, and 50 µH -> 40 µH, respectively).

    Especially for the big LPF inductors I chose the ones with the smallest DC resistance that I've found, due to reasons already mentioned in this thread. I didn't find air cored inductors with DC resistance that even approached the onesI used (0.11 ohms).

    Finally, it is very important to orientate the inductor axes perpenducularly to each other, see my pics.

    Best regards!
    Hey Kay,

    Very impressive work. Those caps look like they sound silky smooth! Oil caps like you have are most probably the best sounding. And the layout you have is so professional and in perfect order. I can bet your speakers sound absolutely amazing. I remember reading one of your posts from way back when I just got my 4430's. I picked up on a post you sent about re coning your woofers with SS audio cones and I did the same because you were not having the outrageous price of OEM JBL cones. Thanks to you I got to where I am and I am totally happy with my re-cones. I will embarrass myself and reveal that I fudged the first pair and had to order a second set to get it right. But get it right I did. I certainly appreciate your no nonsense way of building things and your low DCR values. You are right, no air core inductor can beat .11 ohms! The Erse Super Q's come close to that but they are a way out. And, I am not as handy with an ohm meter as you are. I have a pair of 4 ohm super q's in a pair of EV SP-15's that I am not using. If I could unwind them and get to 2.6 ohm I would be good, but, alas I do not have a DeRee DR 5000 to measure. I would upload pictures of what I have done but I have not figured out how to do that yet with this forum. Just to warn you though, my work is not as beautiful as yours, but it works and I am very happy. I have had lots of 3 way and even 4 way speakers and electrostatic speakers etc. Speakers that crossed over as low as 300 hz and they always started to bother my ears after longer listening sessions or high volume listening levels. Something about the 2 way bi radial horns that don't hurt my ears. I think JBL was trying to emulate or better the Altec 604's. The big boss man at the time said 2 ways sounded best and so the 4430 was born. I find it interesting that most JBL designs going forward (of the 4430 & 4435) are based primarily as two way designs to handle the widest frequency range with perhaps a boost at the top end with a super tweeter or augmented at the low end with a "subwoofer". And a few of the highest end designs like the K2 etc used charge coupled crossovers. So, I thought I would try that with the 4430's. There is no way I can buy a $35k plus speaker. And I cannot afford even the $25k M2 with electronic crossovers. Anyway, thanks for responding and I wish I had your wiring skills!

  7. #37
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    Thanks for the compliments !

    Anyway, as I wrote above, there are no oil capacitors at all. All of them are polypropylene, most probably the best dielectric known today, scientfically spoken. Those big cans are motor start or run (I dunno...) capacitors, and also polypropylene (see that MKP written on them).

    I bought my DR-5000 meter just for the purpose of building these xovers directly from Japan. It wasn't that expensive and is worth any cent. But it literally eats batteries, though, and the dedicated AC adapter is rather expensive.

    Best regards!

  8. #38
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    Charge Coupled Crossover

    I finally finished the crossover using the existing 2.6 mH inductor. I am attempting to add pictures so we will see if they go through. My work is not anywhere as neat and orderly as Kay's but it was difficult to manage the 12 gauge wires I used. So, kind of looks a little like a rat's nest in there but it works.

    I have dual mono amps that have a switch on the front where I can select either Class A or A/B. I have owned these amps for about 6 years and never really noticed any change on any of my speakers when flipping the switch. It all seemed to sound the same. So even with the 4430's and the original crossovers, I just kept them running in A/B. I was very surprised that when I was burning in the new crossover and just thought, what the heck, why not try them in Class A? Surprised? Amazed? The only way I can describe it is that the horns came to "life" and the speaker expanded in height and width to substantial proportions. They went from 3 foot tall to about 8 foot tall. It was unmistakable I have also been listening to my favorite music collection with what I consider high quality recordings and am hearing details I have never heard before. Little bits of triangles, vocalists breath, faint ocean waves, and the list goes on. I could go on and on, but I will stop there. All I can say is that I feel the change from stock to charged coupled has made a gigantic difference and these speakers are now keepers for life.
    Attached Images Attached Images      

  9. #39
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    May I ask which L pads you used as the high frequency bypass rheostat? I've often read that a common 8 ohms L pad can be used in this service, but after thinking about it very thoroughly I came to the comnclusion that this doesn't make too much sense. Consequently, I've modified my L pads to get them work properly, see my related thread.

    Best regards!

  10. #40
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    L Pads

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay Pirinha View Post
    May I ask which L pads you used as the high frequency bypass rheostat? I've often read that a common 8 ohms L pad can be used in this service, but after thinking about it very thoroughly I came to the comnclusion that this doesn't make too much sense. Consequently, I've modified my L pads to get them work properly, see my related thread.

    Best regards!
    Hi Kay,

    I used these L-Pads from Parts Express https://www.parts-express.com/L-Pad-...-8-Ohm-260-255 I read your thread on modifying the L-Pads and not sure I understand exactly what you are doing. It is obvious to me that you have a high degree of expertise in your electrical skills and measurements. I will re read several times to see if I can wrap my brain around what you are doing. Of note, on the original OEM L-Pads, both increased the signal to mid and high by turning clockwise. Also, the high frequency L-Pad really didn't seem to make a huge difference. In my current set up, the mid level is increased by turning clockwise, but the high frequency is increased by going counter clockwise. It works, the same as the original but I was kind of wondering how I can get it right by going clockwise. Either that, or I can just use the stock L-Pads or even better yet, possibly remove them from the circuit all together. I use Direc Live Room Correction and can tailor the sound to my liking with or without L-Pads. In any case, I am very impressed with your attention to detail and getting everything right, so can you perhaps go into more detail on what I could do? I will state that as of right now, everything sounds amazing and I do not have your electric meters to measure components and I don't think I would file down anything to fit a certain measurement. If it is as easy as opening up the L-Pad and reversing the resisting component, then I would be all for that. Thanks for your continued input and advice!

  11. #41
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    Hello Again Kay

    Ok Kay, I just re evaluated the the upper high frequency rheostat on my new crossover and decided that it was not working correctly. I followed the JBL network diagram as well as Ian's detailed diagram to a "t" . I am very careful when I do my soldering and triple checked everything before I put the iron to the wire. My wiring and soldering checks out 100 percent, but like you pointed out, something is not checking out. In my original crossover, I had the high frequency attenuation at full tilt most of the time. But it was always nice to be able to dial it down depending on the recording I was listening to. Much easier to dial it down manually then mess with adjusting Direc equalization settings. At this point, I am thinking that I will just by-pass the whole high frequency L-Pad altogether. One less part in the signal path. I will wait a bit to see if you have time to explain your fix for this but otherwise, the high pass attenuation will get the ax.

  12. #42
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    Well, my considerations were the following: A L pad basically consists of two rheostats that are being actuated simultaneously. The 1st one measures 8 ohms, is in series with the driver (between input and driver) and decreases it's resistance when actuated clockwise, the other one measures 42 ohms, is in parallel with the driver (from output to ground/common) and increases it's resistance with cw actuation. Finally it gets cut off (infinite resistance) when fully cw. I considered both properties undesirable and swapped the two individual rheos. The 8 ohms one now is inactive for that purpose, the 42 ohms one is paralleled with two 220 ohms resistors to get close to the 30 ohms value of the originals.

    Best regards!

  13. #43
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    Thanks Kay!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay Pirinha View Post
    Well, my considerations were the following: A L pad basically consists of two rheostats that are being actuated simultaneously. The 1st one measures 8 ohms, is in series with the driver (between input and driver) and decreases it's resistance when actuated clockwise, the other one measures 42 ohms, is in parallel with the driver (from output to ground/common) and increases it's resistance with cw actuation. Finally it gets cut off (infinite resistance) when fully cw. I considered both properties undesirable and swapped the two individual rheos. The 8 ohms one now is inactive for that purpose, the 42 ohms one is paralleled with two 220 ohms resistors to get close to the 30 ohms value of the originals.

    Best regards!

    Kay, I have to say thank you for bringing the L-Pad's SHARPLY into focus and to my attention. While I did not perform any of the electronic surgery you prescribed, I perceived I had a problem with the L-Pad wiring since my high frequency upper L-pad was working in reverse. I was able to receive some guidance from Yoda (Ian) and it turns out I had the L-Pad wiring wrong. I was going off of the stamped numbers on the Dayton Audio L-Pads and not following the diagram Ian sent which clearly says terminal front and the respective numbers. Oh well, I have learned something once again. Anyway, at first it really did not seem to make a big difference (re-wiring the L-Pads correctly), but after I had a chance to really sit down and listen, yes, it made a big difference. I would again like to state that if you had not brought up the subject of L-Pads, I would, right now be missing out on what I am currently experiencing. So another interesting thing is that when I was installing one of the 9-volt battery holders, one of the terminals that clasp onto the positive terminal of the battery smashed in a bit on one side so it makes a positive connection but does not snap in all the way. I have another on order but making do with this one for now. So I had just finished rewiring the the L-Pads correctly in the morning and gave the speakers a quick listen to make sure everything was working and attenuating clockwise etc. Later today, I sat down and started listening critically and did notice an obvious improvement. When things sound good, I have a tendency to increase the volume. At some point, I really increased the volume and suddenly one speaker became muted and I thought, "oh crap, what now?". I pulled the speakers off the stands and examined the crossovers. All connections were good, no wires loose, everything was good. I then put the speakers back on their stands and then noticed that the 9-volt battery on the holder with the damaged terminal had bumped loose due to the bass. I popped it back in and everything shifted back into focus for that speaker. I was not really sure that the improvements I was hearing was due to using new caps, resistors and mostly new inductors. I believe the charged coupled configuration makes a huge difference, making the 4430's come alive. And it is not only in the horns, it is evident in the entire bass range as well. That has been my experience anyway.

  14. #44
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    Hi Dave,

    Once you have settled on the position of the midrange presence L pad you can put in fixed value Mills power resisters or your other favourite brand. It will then be completely reliable and may sound even better…….

    I must say with your recent diy activities your well on the way to becoming a JBL Jedi.

    Yoda

  15. #45
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    Hi Dave,

    a loose battery connector in a charge coupled xover won't result in a complete cutoff of the relevant driver. In fact, I'm quite convinced you won't notice it at all.

    The reason is what I've described above: If you use the L pad's higher ohmish rheostat that normally is in parallel to it's output, action is reversed (attenuation when turned clockwise) and comes to a cutoff when fully clockwise.

    Best regards!

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