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Thread: JBL 4430 Speakers

  1. #46
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    12 or 3 o'clock

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    Hi Dave,

    Once you have settled on the position of the midrange presence L pad you can put in fixed value Mills power resisters or your other favourite brand. It will then be completely reliable and may sound even better…….

    I must say with your recent diy activities your well on the way to becoming a JBL Jedi.

    Yoda

    I keep looking at the customer feedback link on Yoda's forum responses and realize that it is some sort of mystical heaven where I belong once I have earned the title of JBL Jedi. In the mean time, as a newbie, novice, neophyte and aspiring amateur, I still have much to learn and more to grow. So, my first question is: in looking at the original JBL diagram of the 4430 speaker network, it shows the 14 uF capacitor with a .01 uF in the low frequency circuit (between the positive feed and 7.5 resistor) . If the 14 uF capacitor is not an important element in the overall sound of the low pass circuit, then why in the heck did JBL engineers designate a by-pass cap in there? Would or could one benefit by adding a poly cap there instead of a np electrolytic. Or better yet, what would happen if one were to add a charged coupled cap there (two 28 uF caps with a 2.2 Meg resistor sandwiched in between?). Let's see, what happens again when we split open this small atom?

    Second question is: I cannot decide between 12 or 3 O'clock on the mid L-pad. Sort of depends on what mood I am in and what type of music is on the jukebox. Most likely inclined to choose the 3:00. So, if I do that then what is the SOP for measuring the L-Pads resistance with a standard oHm meter and what terminals have to be measured. I am almost inclined to set my setting and then ship to Kay in Germany for precision measurements! Btw I happen to think Kraftwerk's album "Computer World" is one of the best sounding and most brilliant musical compositions in existence). I am assuming I am looking for a 2 dB attenuation and I can look up the resistors values in Erse's crossover calculator but would like to know the correct way to do this and not just willy nilly my way through this. After all, I have come this far with stupendous results (So great in scope, degree, or importance as to amaze. Extremely large in amount, extent, or size; enormous. Remarkable; outstanding.).




    Third question is: What happens to the high pass (10kH +) L-pad? Do I leave it in, do I swap out one of wipers, or does it just get deleted from the circuit altogether?

    I am all in favor of going further in sound refinement so this will certainly be on my very important things to do list. I will most likely use Mills resistors for the fixed L-Pad. I used Dayton Audio 1% 200 watt, ultra low inductance resistors for the main crossover just because I wanted to try them out. Yes, they were about $1.50 each less then a Mills but I loved the look of them. They reminded me of the resistors in one of my very first speaker crossover projects (Pioneer CS-99A's). I actually think they sound very good and doubt I could pass a blind test between resistors. Mills resistors are very compact and have no inductance so they are ideal for an L-Pad configuration I think.

  2. #47
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    Thank You

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay Pirinha View Post
    Hi Dave,

    a loose battery connector in a charge coupled xover won't result in a complete cutoff of the relevant driver. In fact, I'm quite convinced you won't notice it at all.

    The reason is what I've described above: If you use the L pad's higher ohmish rheostat that normally is in parallel to it's output, action is reversed (attenuation when turned clockwise) and comes to a cutoff when fully clockwise.

    Best regards!
    Hello Dear Kay,

    I would like to state that I did not have a complete cutoff of any of the two drivers in my sound reproducer. What I did say is that I noticed that the sound was muted or muffled. Both drivers were working but no loner dynamic. After the L-Pad rewire (done specifically because you brought brought it to my attention ((& I thank you (((HUGS!))) I can clockwise the heck out of both L-Pads and it only increases the signal (there is no longer any cutout or cutoff). What I noticed is that both the horn and the woofer suddenly seemed lifeless ie not dynamic. I pulled the speaker off the stand and examined the crossovers. I went over every wire and everything checked out. When I built the crossover, I soldered the heck out of every connection and then put shrink wrap over the connections so I was not surprised to find that everything checked out. But when I put the speaker back on the crossover stand, I noticed that the 9v battery was loose and not making a connection. I pushed it pack into the terminals and then "bam" it was working again. I did not move any of the L-Pads positions at any time during this procedure. I will admit, I am a forest gump (or young Luke Skywalker) of speakers for sure but I still have a scientific mind. You say that you are quite convinced that I would not notice if the battery was connected or not but what are you basing that on? Have you built and listened to a charge coupled crossover? Are you just going of of what you think or do you actually have your own experience and proof to base it on? I have nothing to gain and am not profiting from any of this save that my own enjoyment of sound. In other words, I am reporting an unbiased experience (my own experience) of what I have observed simply because I love music and sound reproducers and that is my thing. And, I love discussing these things because it is my passion. It is possible that it could have been something else that I am not aware of but my ears tell me otherwise. Even my tone deaf wife can tell a huge difference in the sound from these speakers and has started to gravitate more towards my listening sessions instead of leaving the room. That, in itself, speaks volumes.

  3. #48
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    Hi Dave,

    well, both my knowledge and my attitude are scientifically based. Both science and good engineering practice tell that, in contradiction to polarized electrolytics, film foil or metalized film capacitors don't need no polarizing, or DC bias, at all to work properly. There's simply no physical explanation to be found why this should be otherwise. I've questioned rather often in the past for some reliable source (i. e. scientifical paper, based on DBT's) that proves some benefit of DC biasing foil capacitors, but alas I didn't get any reliable answer till today. I've even started a thread on this subject some time ago.

    For practical reasons look at those »charge coupled« xovers: Most, if not any of them use 9 Vdc LR6 batteries for that purpose. So any claimed benefit would work only below a peak AC voltage of that value. Otherwise the polarization would be reversed and the benefit cancelled. 9 Vp means about 6.4 Vac for a sinusoidal signal, which itself computes to a power of a mere 8.1 watts into 8 ohms.

    I'm quite convinced that »charge coupling« is nothing more than a marketing feature. Adding components of some costs, putting ads with flowerish words, and asking the multiple of these costs works for the company, doesn't it?

    Best regards!

  4. #49
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    Hi Kay,

    If you look up Wima they have some interesting application notes with recommendations on Film Foil polypropylene capacitors used in various kinds of circuits.

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    Hi Ian,

    sorry, didn't find anything related to charge coupling at WIMA's German language website. Did you probably refer to this article? Well, neither dielectric absorption nor residual charging (page 4) refer to what is done in charge coupling. Or did I miss anything?

    Best regards!

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kay Pirinha View Post
    Hi Dave,

    For practical reasons look at those »charge coupled« xovers: Most, if not any of them use 9 Vdc LR6 batteries for that purpose. So any claimed benefit would work only below a peak AC voltage of that value. Otherwise the polarization would be reversed and the benefit cancelled. 9 Vp means about 6.4 Vac for a sinusoidal signal, which itself computes to a power of a mere 8.1 watts into 8 ohms.

    Best regards!

    Why would the DC just disappear?? If you looked at an Oscilloscope you should see the AC voltage superimposed on the battery DC offset. You also have an extremely long discharge Time with the series resistor.

    AC does not equal DC they are different and behave differently.

    Rob
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

  7. #52
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    You're right in case of no significant AC voltage over the capacitor. Anyway, in xovers and other filters there's signal beyond (at a LP) or below (in a LP) the roll off frequency whose amplitude may well exceed the polarisation DC voltage.

    But we shouldn't derail Dave's thread on his 4430's any longer, as this is quite another topic.

    Best regards!

  8. #53
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    No it refers to the application of metalized film, film foil and double sided construction for hi current applications.

    The Solen Fast Caps 250 Vdc used by JBL are metalized aluminium with their particular approach to the dielectric and winding and winding tension. This is quite different to the approach taken by Mundorf. Some of their capacitors are like two end to end capacitors to reduce inductance and some are oil damped

    I don’t know if you have used or compared the Solen Fast Caps subjectively with the Mundorf Supreme or the Silver Oil versions?

    I have and l would describe the charge coupled Solen’s as subjectively very similar to the Mundorf Supreme capacitors. The stock Solen Fast Caps are subjectively quite a dirty noisy capacitor subjectively. The Silver Oil Mundorf have a less live presentation subjectively which l prefer with non dusted diaphragms. The Solen Charge Coupled capacitors exhibit an air of dynamic transient detail and contrast that l have not observed in any other capacitor. They are neutral in that there is no warmth or loudness effect found in some boutique capacitor brands. I would throw caution to the wind if your source equipment is not because at this level the flaws in the source equipment and the recordings became very revealing.

    My appraisal was done with Pass labs X250.5 amplifier at the time. The differences are irrefutable on appropriate hifi equipment. I have since used Parasound Halo amplifiers which l think are a very good match for JBL systems we use around here. They have a complimentary Jfet input stage that was initially used in the first Mark Levinson amplifiers. They are relatively inexpensive and l think they are more neutral than the Pass Labs which have a subtle warmth and zing as you might expect from a mosfet based amplifier. But who’s complaining when Nelson Pass gives you an amp after a review!

    The X250.5 amplifiers have a small amount of single ended class A bias from the negative supply rail and are biased in class A push pull up to low power levels and then operate as a conventional class AB amplifier up to full output using balanced super symmetry complimentary follower output stages. They only have two stages and they are exceedingly linear with relatively low global feedback. John Curl is no slouch as an amplifier designer and the prior version of my Parasound amp was in production for a very long time.

    Why am l talking about amplifiers?

    Because it’s all relative and as everything else gets better the signal chain becomes more important and is only as strong as its weakest link.

  9. #54
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    Casey Jones your better watch you speed, trouble ahead, trouble behind...

    OK then, it is quite evident that there are people on this site that are way more advanced in their electrical knowledge than I will ever be. I suspect some with electrical engineering degrees. Like Ph.D level and such. We, (myself and those with higher levels of formal education) all share one thing in common and that is most likely a passion for listening to music. I am considering buying some cheap 9v battery holders in plastic cases with an on/off switch on the case. They are only about $5 for a pair. I can easily wire them in and then I can experiment with a double blind test. I say double blind because I will not tell my wife which switch position activates the 9v current. Then I can close my eyes and have her switch the position on the terminals while I listen to see if I can really tell a difference. All I know, is that my very good 4430's have been turned into the best pair of speakers I have ever owned. They seem to combine many elements of some of my favorite speakers I have owned in the past. I used to have a pair of Bozak B4000 Modern Symphonies with 6" aluminum mid ranges that were tri amped with an electronic crossover with 50 watt tube amps powering the mids (crossed over at 300 hz), the woofers powered with bridged mono 600 watt Adcoms (designed by Mr. Nelson Pass) and the tweeter section amplified by a musical fidelity amp. The midrange in those speakers was absolutely golden to my ears and now the 4430's surpass that. I cannot believe there is not a midrange driver hidden somewhere in the room. I don't know how it is possible that those big 15" woofers can do what they do. Having a lighter cone, gigantic magnet assembly and a 4" voice coil probably has something to do with it, but with the new crossover, I am hearing details in the midrange from music (I am 20 years familiar with) that I have never heard before. And the timing of the music is absolutely stunning and realistic. I had a pair of ESS AMT C speakers with the Heil tweeter. I loved the high end on those but ultimately it did not sound realistic and was a bit too "airy" for me and the woofers simply could not keep up with the Heils. IN that speaker, I could tell that the midrange was not very defined. The 4430's upper end is now clear and detailed and matches perfectly with the woofer. I think the JBL engineers stated in their literature that the 4430's polar response was equal for one octave at the crossover point of 1000 hz. To my ears, the integration of the two drivers now sounds seamless. There is nothing lacking. I am not saying that the 4430's are the be all end all of speakers either. But for what I can afford and with a minimal cost to upgrade, I could not be happier. As a matter of fact, they check all the boxes for amazing musical reproduction and I am done, my Hi-Fi quest for the perfect speaker for me has ended. Now I can just sit back and listen and enjoy. I still have to take new room measurements and adjust the Direc Live settings for the new crossover but it sounds so good as it is that I have not bothered with that yet. I think I put in 4 hours of listening just yesterday evening. They are sort of hypnotic. I guess to be honest, I probably will not expend any more energy on the merits of charge coupling and if it can be scientifically proven or not. I don't care if anyone doubts there are any benefits to it or not. I respect their opinion and they have a right to believe as they wish. For me, it simply works and the results have been way better then I imagined. Heck, I was very skeptical at first, but I wanted to find out if it was for real and it was on my stereo "geek" bucket list. I had an F5 tornado come about 20 miles from my house last Friday so one never knows how much time they have left on this Earth. Knowing that, I plan on listening to my hearts content, knowing that I am not missing out on anything. I am very grateful to have speaker friends that take the time to discuss speaker things and that in itself is joyful and beautiful. What started out as a thread full of crickets has turned into an amazing experience and I have learned a great deal. Thank you !!!

  10. #55
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    I Agree

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    No it refers to the application of metalized film, film foil and double sided construction for hi current applications.

    The Solen Fast Caps 250 Vdc used by JBL are metalized aluminium with their particular approach to the dielectric and winding and winding tension. This is quite different to the approach taken by Mundorf. Some of their capacitors are like two end to end capacitors to reduce inductance and some are oil damped

    I don’t know if you have used or compared the Solen Fast Caps subjectively with the Mundorf Supreme or the Silver Oil versions?

    I have and l would describe the charge coupled Solen’s as subjectively very similar to the Mundorf Supreme capacitors. The stock Solen Fast Caps are subjectively quite a dirty noisy capacitor subjectively. The Silver Oil Mundorf have a less live presentation subjectively which l prefer with non dusted diaphragms. The Solen Charge Coupled capacitors exhibit an air of dynamic transient detail and contrast that l have not observed in any other capacitor. They are neutral in that there is no warmth or loudness effect found in some boutique capacitor brands. I would throw caution to the wind if your source equipment is not because at this level the flaws in the source equipment and the recordings became very revealing.

    My appraisal was done with Pass labs X250.5 amplifier at the time. The differences are irrefutable on appropriate hifi equipment. I have since used Parasound Halo amplifiers which l think are a very good match for JBL systems we use around here. They have a complimentary Jfet input stage that was initially used in the first Mark Levinson amplifiers. They are relatively inexpensive and l think they are more neutral than the Pass Labs which have a subtle warmth and zing as you might expect from a mosfet based amplifier. But who’s complaining when Nelson Pass gives you an amp after a review!

    The X250.5 amplifiers have a small amount of single ended class A bias from the negative supply rail and are biased in class A push pull up to low power levels and then operate as a conventional class AB amplifier up to full output using balanced super symmetry complimentary follower output stages. They only have two stages and they are exceedingly linear with relatively low global feedback. John Curl is no slouch as an amplifier designer and the prior version of my Parasound amp was in production for a very long time.

    Why am l talking about amplifiers?

    Because it’s all relative and as everything else gets better the signal chain becomes more important and is only as strong as its weakest link.

    My past experience with Solen fast cap capacitors in crossover upgrades was so-so. Mind, you, I was using them as singles and not in a charged coupled configuration. For example, I once used Solen's to upgrade the capacitor's in a pair of Polk Audio SDA SRS 3.1 TL's. This resulted in a bit of sonic improvement overall, but not a jaw dropping, I can't believe what I am hearing sort of experience. The charged coupled Solen's, on the other hand, are quite a different story. Earlier this evening, I was listening to Beck's HD CD Sea Change and the song "Little Ones". I have had this CD since 2006 and listened to it numerous times. So, my wife was in the kitchen which is adjacent to my listening room (I know, not the optimal location but...) and then she walked out. I could hear water running from the faucet and was just about to get up and turn off the faucet and then kindly ask her to remember to not leave water running unattended in the future. But, the water running sound was actually being reproduced by the speakers and not the kitchen faucet. The thing is, the water running that I was hearing sounded like it was coming behind me and not from the front of the speakers. When I turned down the sound and went and checked the faucet, it was not running. I turned up the music again and heard water running again and in the back of the listening room. When a capacitor can cause seeming auditory hallucinations, you have something very special indeed.

  11. #56
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    I think you have an emotional connection with your tune when you play it.

    That's all that matters.

    Yoda

  12. #57
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    Happy New Year!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    I think you have an emotional connection with your tune when you play it.

    That's all that matters.

    Yoda

    Emotion has something to do with it, sure, but if a speaker can evoke that type of emotion while playing music then it is doing what the designers intended. I visited a friend today who has a large collection of speakers that include JBL & Altec speakers. I was able to hear the JBL Aquarius for the first time and I thought they were actually very good. My friend also has a pair of JBL 4430's and I listened to them. Basically a stock pair with no modifications. Though he has a different amp and uses iTunes through his phone, I was easily able to discern the difference between stock vs. the modified, charge coupled 4430 crossover. The stock 4430's sounded heavy and lifeless without any upper extension. My friend has a pair of JBL Aquarius speakers on top of the 4430's and would switch between them for comparison. The Aquarius speakers presented a better sound overall, in that small room. I noticed his 4430's were missing the lively presence that I found in my 4430's after the crossover modification. I also listened to others including the Altec Model 17's with the 604 driver. I really liked the Altec Magnificent's the best though. The bass horn positions the woofer voice coil back to where the high frequency horns voice coil is located (fairly close) and it sounds like the timing and alignment is right on. The Alec's had a real nice sparkle and presence to them that just drew me in. What I also noticed is that now my 4430's have more of an "Altec" sound to them, or the Altec's had a sound that was similar to the revamped 4430's. That is alive, dynamic and sweet without being harsh. Anyway, a great day for me to spend time listening to other rigs. Would I love to own a pair of Magnificients? Heck yes! Am I still happy with the 4430's? Absolutely. I think to get the most out of the 4430's though, a good 18" subwoofer helps along with a constant directivity eq curve and modifying the crossover and class A amplification.

  13. #58
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    That’s a really good outcome.

    Think subscribing to maximising you potential of your loudspeakers with small but collectively significant improvement is always going to improve your engagement.

    I call this getting closer to the music. Ultimately the source recording and the playback loudspeakers and the listening room are the uncontrolled variables. If you can minimise the loudspeakers impact as far as practical in the listening room your pushing the envelope.

    Can l suggest you consider elevating the 4430’s off the floor somewhat so the horn +woofer midpoint is at ear level. This is the design point of these systems as far as l am aware.

    Last year l had someone enquire about active mode of the horn driver with active EQ.
    I did some development modelling the compression driver in Linear X Leap and interestingly the compression driver looses loading toward 1000 hertz due to limitations of the horn. David Smith (4430 crossover designer) has commented on this as a roughness in the horn. This is due to impedance ripple which in turn modulates the crossover voltage drive to the horn compression driver.

    After l lot of thought and trail and error l found a simple fix.

    It can be done with a current source type of amplifier like some of Nelson Pass First Watt amplifiers.
    But that’s an expensive stretch.

    What l did was use a large coupling capacitor for protection from DC offsets with the power amplifier using long time constant so the driver sees a close to zero source impedance. This damps the impedance ripple. A value of 180uF or more is adequate. Do not use a low value protection capacitor.

    The active crossover voltage drive is independent of impedance due to the low output impedance of the power amplifier and the large coupling capacitor.

    The result is a much smoother response.

    You can simply bypass a non polarised capacitor with charge coupled capacitor or 1/100 the valve of the non polarised capacitor.

    For those interested pm me to be put on the list for a suitable active crossover and active CD EQ of the 4430 compression driver.

    I think the results will be quite interesting.

  14. #59
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    Hi Ian,

    yes, in some studio monitor rooms even the heavy 4430's were installed hanging upside down from the ceiling and tilted to have the midpoint of both drivers on the listening axes. Otherwise the horn's staggered mounting wouldn't be of much sense.

    Best regards!

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    Maximizing in Progress

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    That’s a really good outcome.

    Think subscribing to maximising you potential of your loudspeakers with small but collectively significant improvement is always going to improve your engagement.

    I call this getting closer to the music. Ultimately the source recording and the playback loudspeakers and the listening room are the uncontrolled variables. If you can minimise the loudspeakers impact as far as practical in the listening room your pushing the envelope.

    Can l suggest you consider elevating the 4430’s off the floor somewhat so the horn +woofer midpoint is at ear level. This is the design point of these systems as far as l am aware.

    Last year l had someone enquire about active mode of the horn driver with active EQ.
    I did some development modelling the compression driver in Linear X Leap and interestingly the compression driver looses loading toward 1000 hertz due to limitations of the horn. David Smith (4430 crossover designer) has commented on this as a roughness in the horn. This is due to impedance ripple which in turn modulates the crossover voltage drive to the horn compression driver.

    After l lot of thought and trail and error l found a simple fix.

    It can be done with a current source type of amplifier like some of Nelson Pass First Watt amplifiers.
    But that’s an expensive stretch.

    What l did was use a large coupling capacitor for protection from DC offsets with the power amplifier using long time constant so the driver sees a close to zero source impedance. This damps the impedance ripple. A value of 180uF or more is adequate. Do not use a low value protection capacitor.

    The active crossover voltage drive is independent of impedance due to the low output impedance of the power amplifier and the large coupling capacitor.

    The result is a much smoother response.

    You can simply bypass a non polarised capacitor with charge coupled capacitor or 1/100 the valve of the non polarised capacitor.

    For those interested pm me to be put on the list for a suitable active crossover and active CD EQ of the 4430 compression driver.

    I think the results will be quite interesting.
    Hi Ian,

    I actually experimented a bit with room placement, especially height for quite some time. What I found, for my particular room setup, was that the 4430's sounded their best (this was before the charge coupled crossover) about 6 inches off the floor. I did try them at about 15 inches off the floor which put the horn/woofer junction pretty close to ear level. But, I lost some mid and lower bass. Unfortunately, my current listening room and speaker location is certainly less than ideal, but the only way I can set the speakers up. I have also sat on the floor which gets my ears to the right level and there is not too much of a difference that I can tell in overall sonic presentation. I also have them turned in a bit which helps.

    I have also been experimenting (using the crossover in my preamp) with just running the powered subwoofer from 80 hertz down and the 4430's 80 hertz and up (switching between 12dB & 24dB cut off settings). Some music, I actually prefer the 4430's with the 80hz and up crossover in as it actually cleans up the lower octave and for some reason helps with the horn as well. I have Direc Live on my preamp and my custom curve drops down around 30 hz, bumps up a bit at 100 hz, then gradually drops down until the 1000 hz area. From there I gradually increase it to the top of my in room response which is about 18.6 kHz. I really haven't noticed any major distortion or problems around the 1000 hz area. Perhaps it is because I have that frequency spectrum dialed down a bit. Honestly, for any speaker I have ever owned, I always dial down the mid frequencies from 900 hz through about 2.5 kHz. It may be because my amplifiers work well with this speaker. Or a high damping factor? Not sure but I can usually sense when something sounds off. I am interested in your work around for this to see if it makes any improvement but right now everything sounds so good I am in the camp of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

    Right now the next project is waiting for the super q's and then measuring the L-Pads so I can install fixed Mills resistors. Just hope there isn't a long wait on those Mills!

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