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Thread: JBL 4331 rebuild using 2445J and JBL woofer - would this be a good idea? Help pls!

  1. #16
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    Hah, just scrolled up and reminded myself you already had a pair of 2445s. Forget I said anything.

  2. #17
    Member Mazza's Avatar
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    Hi Riley,
    Great information, many thanks. I am very fond of and respect EV product greatly.

    In fact it was a chance purchase of a pair of SX80's for $60 that got me hooked on horn loaded speakers. Their relative control of the HF directivity had me hooked from the moment I listened to them and their build quality is commendable. I still use these in my workshop.


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    My current home theatre main speakers were inspired by them and use the same (Eminence made?) EV8L woofer.


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  3. #18
    Member Mazza's Avatar
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    Regarding the 2385 I understand that it is a diffraction horn from a different era and therefore sufferers from higher order modes (HOM) as SPL rises as set out in this paper by Dr Geddes.



    I completely accept your experience with this horn but I do have great respect for the 2385 as a horn for use at home, Strauss couldn't be wrong, right?


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    The Calampos also uses this device with great results, albeit both use a different CD....


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    On this basis, for hifi use I'm excited to try the 2385 and the 2445 with my new woofers!


  4. #19
    Member sebackman's Avatar
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    The 2445 falls off pretty steeply after 10k as most 2" drivers. You can use the high sensitivity to compensate for most of that but from my experience the result may be less than stellar. 2-way systems with 2" drivers are difficult to get working for HiFi. Especially with the older horns IMHO.

    I would suggest to add a UHF (077/045) driver on top for HiFi use. Can be done by simple 6db XO with a capacitor adding were there 2" starts dropping.

    I also suggest to take a closer look at 2380 as an alternative, as pointed out by Berry.

    Or get a 1,5" driver (aka 2447, 2450SL or 2451) to geed a modern waveguide (JBL #5006815, $45) and be done. No UHF needed and if you add a "SL" (coated) diaphragm you will put most other systems on the grand stand. XO at about 1kHz.

    If you are into experimenting you can put an alu dust cap on your 2226's to change the higher mid and test.

    Kind regards
    //Rob
    The solution to the problem changes the problem.
    -And always remember that all of your equipment was made by the lowest bidder

  5. #20
    Member Mazza's Avatar
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    Hi Rob,
    Thanks heaps for your suggestions.

    Did you see my earlier posts in this thread for measured frequency response for my 2445's and 2385's?

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    I believe I'll be able to passive EQ these into a nice extended flat response, with a little house curve to taste...


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    What do you think?

  6. #21
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    I'm going say for home the 60 X 40 2385 horn may be a little narrow, the 2380 at 90 X 40 or even the harder to find 2382 that is a 120 X 40.

    I use the 2385's in some of my double 12 PA cabinets with either a EV NDYM-1 or ND6 driver.
    Those drivers are basically a neo DH1a driver, at least on paper they show a bit more output
    than the DH1a.

    After looking up the Strauss speakers those are 2380 horns, I'm going to say
    the wood grain speakers have 2382 horns.

  7. #22
    Member Mazza's Avatar
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    G'day Mike,
    Thanks heaps for your thoughts. Actually the Calpamos use the P-Audio clone of the 2380.

    Click here to see the detailed write up on this system including some listening impressions from the designer....


    So now I have a new question, what to do with these 2402H ?


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    I grabbed the pair for a very good price. They need new diaphragms but are otherwise in good condition.

    Can anyone advise what systems these were used in please? I searched the web but couldn't find much info on them.

    They do fit perfectly in the tweeter cut outs either side of the main horn opening in my cabinets.....




    Cheers.

  8. #23
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    I'm a big fan of JBL 2" drivers for PA use. I can understand posts where people say they can be fatigued by them. I run mine thru 31 band eqs with different settings for each diaphragm used. I found one used driver went much higher than any other one I have.
    Anyways, I would share again, that the Selenium drivers I got before sounded much sweeter to my ears. They didn't need much EQ. Might be perfect here?
    They are mounted on EV horns BTW. I don't have any test equipment other than my ears.
    (click this link)
    JBL 2441 vs 2445 vs 2446 (audioheritage.org)
    Look down the page just one post to see them posted by me.
    If you do go with the older 2445 or especially lower quality diaphragms, some simple EQ settings can help your ears survive the onslaught.
    I would state certain freq cuts like 1.2k, 2k, 4k, or boosts above 10k, but I feel like that wouldn't apply to every example. Having a good eq is a great way to keep your ears from harassment. I find the same cuts I have made in live performances, can still apply in my house. JBL 2" drivers seem to excel in certain freq, where they will fatigue your ears. So you may have to cut those to taste as needed. Start very small like 2 or 3 db at any offending freq.
    I seem to like 2k down quite a bit, like 6db. If your EQ quality varies from mine, you may find any quoted numbers don't apply here. A EQ from Yamaha for example doesn't cut like some others IMO.
    Once you start playing with the EQ, you may find you have to tune for each recording. Some like a tight jazz sound with mild midrange for most material, where some rock records will sound much different.
    If you go from a Def Leppard cd to a Celine Dion, I wouldn't expect the same tuning to please all listeners.
    I also should update that post, I have found the 2453 drivers are now my new desired driver. Until I get some new D2 drivers to test that is.
    I moved the smaller 2432 drivers to monitors and are pleased in how accurate they are and how they cut thru. I'll always like the 2441, 2445, 2446, and 2450/1 drivers. Just tired of lugging them!
    Sorry for the rambling. Love to talk drivers and learn more from experts.

  9. #24
    Member Mazza's Avatar
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    Thanks for sharing your thoughts engineerjoe! Much appreciated.

  10. #25
    Member sebackman's Avatar
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    Hi Mazza,

    I did see the measurement and the scale make it seem like rather ok but in reality you are about 10-15 db down above 10k. Typical for a 2" driver with that phasing plug/exit. That is a lot to even out in a passive filter.

    Typically I would recommend a 1,5" driver with an SL diaphragm with a modern waveguide or to add a UHF unit as mentioned. There are very few passive JBL 2-way systems with 2" drivers for HiFi use and with 1,5 drivers being better suited and priced the same that may prove an easier way to go.

    I also agree with Mike that 60x40 is a bit on the narrow side for home use.

    Sometimes we spend more money trying to use what we have rather than sell and start over. Getting new diaphragms for the 075's is expensive end up taking more money compared to the 1,5" route . It is always better with fewer drivers.

    I find that the best drivers for HiFi use are the 2447 (heavy), 2450SL, 2451SL, 2452SL and of course the 476 in various forms.

    2453 (SL) as mentioned by engineerjoe is good little driver but it does not fit all horns. They have a short phasing plug that creates a dramatic dip around 10k on some horns. i had to make a spacer to fit them on some waveguides. There is a thread here on LH if you search. Member "nyt" did some good work there.
    2453H-SL on STX825 waveguide over 2265g-1 center channel (audioheritage.org).

    Kind regards
    //Rob
    The solution to the problem changes the problem.
    -And always remember that all of your equipment was made by the lowest bidder

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by sebackman View Post
    Hi Mazza,



    2453 (SL) as mentioned by engineerjoe is good little driver but it does not fit all horns. They have a short phasing plug that creates a dramatic dip around 10k on some horns. i had to make a spacer to fit them on some waveguides. There is a thread here on LH if you search. Member "nyt" did some good work there.
    2453H-SL on STX825 waveguide over 2265g-1 center channel (audioheritage.org).

    Kind regards
    //Rob
    My main PA uses all JBL with 2258s for lows, 2262 for mid, and now 2453 for highs. I have mainly 2 models of JBL waveguides on the 2453 being the 60x40 model and the 120x60? model. 2 cabs are JBL AM7212/64s (replaced hf drivers).
    All other cabs are home made by me for light weight (I'm disabled).
    I play with the active crossovers in my Crown amps and put them at 200hz and 1250hz for now. I made a mistake and set one rack at 1500hz mid to highs for the last show!
    The low cabs seem to have a hollow tone somewhere in the 240hz range. I was going to add bracing and still haven't.
    Anyways, I was wondering if you had any thoughts about the crossover point choices? I read a lot about using the 18"s for sub duty only and crossing over somewhere at or just over 100hz. I wanted maximum clarity out of the mids and didn't wish to push them lower.
    I have acquired some used JBL 2251s for possible use down the road in a all in one flyable cab to still be built. I considered using all the same crossover points universally in a combined system.
    I apologize to OP if this takes this post off course now. I am very happy with the performance of those light 2453s against the older 2445/6 and 2450s so far.

  12. #27
    Member Mazza's Avatar
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    G'day gents, thanks for your inputs.

    My build is for a home setting so I'm not chasing max spl. These parts will be coasting in my setup, I rarely listen above 90db.

    Regarding the roll off or mass break point for the compression driver and horn - this is a feature of CD mounted to a constant directivity horn and the filtering of this in a passive network is quite straight forward. Its also called top-octave compensation.

    Wayne Parham has written a series of terrific white papers about this here.

    With regards to crossover points, the most important for me in a home setting is ensuring a smooth transition between woofer and tweeter (or whatever) throughout the passband of the system.

    Dr Geddes has a great white paper on this and how to interpret polar maps here.

    We want to hand off the narrowing off axis response of the woofer seamlessly to the horn CD combination so that we achieve a smooth on and off axis response like this. ..



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    Here you can see the crossover is around 1.6khz. This is the measured response of a previous build of mine using modern parts. It turned out sounding very sweet indeed (confirmation bias?? )....



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    Cheers.

  13. #28
    Senior Member RMC's Avatar
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    Hi Mazza,

    RE Post # 22 (2402), Can anyone advise what systems these were used in please? I searched the web but couldn't find much info on them.

    I've seen a number in my JBL documents, but too many for me to list here.

    As a starting point you can look at the attached list of Cabaret Series models using the 2402. Its also used in various older JBL models i saw.

    Richard

    JBL Cabaret Series Reference Chart (1-1983)[1].pdf

  14. #29
    Member Mazza's Avatar
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    That's wonderful, thank you Richard!

  15. #30
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    Have use used the 4331 in its original form?

    What is your opinion of the stock 4331?

    What are you trying to achieve?

    I have heard a stock 4331 set up by Greg Timbers with room EQ REW and raised on crates with an active crossover using customer settings.

    We thought performed very well after listening to the DD67000.

    I would be careful about using a SEOS horn unless you are familiar with how to set them up in a room. They work best placed in the corners of a room.

    But that may not make the bass sound its best.

    Why not borrow a pair of 2311 horns and try your two inch drivers for direct comparison?

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