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Thread: Crossover help and general cfor Jbl d130 Meyer sound ms-1402 in 4560 cabinets

  1. #16
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    Senior Member RMC's Avatar
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    Riley,

    RE "2225 recone kits weren't a fit for D130 frames"

    Before writing about a D130 possibly having a 2225 recone kit, as mentioned by the OP, i checked in the attached JBL document. Unless there's an error or typo in that official info i assumed its right.

    Afterwards, the OP updated his mention to D130A and showed D130F too, which changes things because the D130A is not compatible with others as indicated in doc.

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    You're right, I'm wrong. I just did a quick look at my 'goes into' list before I posted which isn't quite a comprehensive view as the document you used.

    Quote Originally Posted by RMC View Post
    Riley,

    ...
    Before writing about a D130 possibly having a 2225 recone kit, as mentioned by the OP, i checked in the attached JBL document. Unless there's an error or typo in that official info i assumed its right.

    ...

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    Sorry about all my confusion and general ignorance, this is my first experience with any of these early drivers, been dreaming about making a high efficiency horn for a while now. I bought them in a garage with no lights and was told they were all the same, I should have done more research before posting, got too excited about using them asap. I think I payed a fair price, 100 each.
    Thanks for all the information on the 150-4, and the 2225 cones. Do I understand correctly that the d-130a is less full range then the d130? At least one of the cones has 2225 written on its back, another c16r2225. Is there a recone that can give performance similar to the original?

  8. #23
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    The d-130a has a cone that is stamped 52254 and has in chalk e 140-8, am I right in thinking that this and the apex are the earliest bodies?

  9. #24
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    Any recommendations on a sound card for running rew? Will a cheap eBay sound card do the trick? Going to try to start getting the necessary measurements and learning the basics of crossover design.

  10. #25
    Senior Member RMC's Avatar
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    Evan,

    You seem to have some "mix and match" type woofers so its not that easy to provide accurate answers.

    RE "been dreaming about making a high efficiency horn for a while now."

    For better understanding, some applicable principles are given below, then trying to see how they apply to the drivers mentioned.

    RE "Do I understand correctly that the d-130a is less full range then the d130?"

    Yes. The D130A tech sheet rates it up to 1500 hz and crossover at 1200 hz. The D130 with its Alu dustcap is rated 30-17000 hz! in the spec sheet (+/- db ?), however that seems optimistic in practice, moreover imagine the beaming from a 15" driver, or even from 4" dustcap, going up to high frequencies...

    RE "Is there a recone that can give performance similar to the original?"

    Maybe Ken at Upland Speaker Service in California, a member here, has one in his reproduction cone kits or some other alternative to get there.

    RE "The d-130a has a cone that is stamped 52254 and has in chalk e 140-8,"

    An E140 recone on a D130A doesn't seem to make much sense based on the cone kit interchange list i posted. I guess when one's back is to the wall you do what can be done to get some sound out of the driver.

    "Today, virtually all LF horns are driven by cone devices whose primary characteristics are low cone mass and high BL product. Keele (1977) determined the cone driver parameters necessary for successful horn application, ..." (John Eargle, Loudspeaker Handbook, 2nd ed., page 205)

    Think of BL as indication of driver motor strenght, on the other hand cone mass is easy.

    I've often said that low Qts drivers are more suitable for horn loading (as determined by D.B. Keele in a paper), which would seem contradictory with the above quote, however its not in contradiction, consider the following:

    "Figure 4-3 shows a family of curves in which the value of Qts is the only variable. This is roughly equivalent to inversely varying the BL product of the driver. Reducing BL (increasing Qts) diminishes the piston band sensitivity of the system, ..." (Eargle, Page 68). Being an inverse relation, then increasing driver BL diminishes Qts! There's many examples of this notably with MI drivers having stronger motor but lower Qts values (e.g. E140)

    Btw horn guru Bruce Edgar mentioned in his long interview about horns that drivers proper for horn loading have low Qes (citing Keele), however i checked in Keele's original paper and its not low Qes mentioned but rather low Qts (though these two numbers are often close, so not a big error).

    There's another interesting Eargle quote about low Qts woofers, since its not essential to understanding here it will come at some other time.

    So one should preferably be looking for high BL, and/or low Qts, as well as low cone mass in horn loading projects. With the driver models you just mentioned, i've attached some pics of their parameters so you can see for yourself, keep in mind this is for original drivers or with proper recones:

    130A: low Qts, relatively high BL, low cone mass (MMS), looks like a good candidate.

    2225H: first i also highlighted the 2220A on that page for comparison purpose right there since the 130A and 2220 are close cousins. As for the 2225, to beging with note that it is also specified by JBL in the spec sheet for horn use however its not a "natural" or as evident as others: Qts is a little high, BL looks ok, but cone mass (MMS) is pretty high compared to other relevant ones.

    D130: Qts is at the limit of what is often considered to be low though still makes it, BL appears somewhat low, but cone mass (MMS) is the smallest of that group!

    E140: i've highlighted this one on the same page as above one since you mentioned having an E140 recone on a D130A. Other than the cone's suitability issue, Qts is very low and BL is pretty high that's good, but on the other hand cone mass remains somewhat high (which didn't stop JBL from using it in the 4663A horn-loaded cab).

    Bottom line, because a number of your drivers are "hybrids" (ie. frame from one and cone kit from another), you do need to measure things, as mentioned by Riley, in order to know what you really have and can achieve. Even measuring something as simple as each driver's DCR might give a clue.

    Hoping the above will help you in understanding these matters.

    Richard

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  11. #26
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    I use a Focusrite 2i2 as an audio interface and a Superlux ECM999 is my low cost mic option. Used on eBay for this kind of thing is usually a good source.

    Your posts seem to indicate that you may have a mix of impedances on your 15" drivers. A quick check for that would be a pocket volt meter set for ohms. An 8 ohm speaker will usually measure about 5 ohms on the meter while a 16 speaker will likely measure about 12 ohms. Different speaker impedances will require different crossover components.

    Your Meyer high frequency driver look like they might be JBL 2440s. Hard to tell from only the back plate. Posting pics from the side and front would help.

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  13. #28
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    Thanks, for all the incredible help, really great information. I think I now have some idea of what I need to learn and how to learn it in order to build up these horns right. I'm ordering a sound card tonight and I'll build up an impedance rig first, I'll post some measurements when I have them and I'm sure I'll be asking a lot of questions when I get started on the crossovers.
    Those drivers do look unusual, really tall cap, hope the pictures help.

  14. #29
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    About 20 years ago I stumbled upon the same Meyer Sound compression drivers that you have. They also had the names and serial numbers deliberately scratched off. The electronics recycling shop where I found them had them priced at $50 ea., so I gave them a go. They worked.

    The drivers have a 2.8" diaphragm 1.4" exit and are not JBL, Altec, or Yamaha. I am not sure who made them, but they were not used by Meyer for long. They were used in a speaker called the 500A. That speaker used a horn similar to or identical to the UPA-1A horn. I bought a pair of these horns from Meyer to run the drivers. While there (at Meyer Sound), I asked them about the drivers. They told me that the reason they were disfigured was that they were factory seconds and were meant to go to eWaste and absolutely should not have been sold.

    I paired the horns and drivers with a variety of woofers. I was never that happy with them. I eventually found some blown MS-1401 drivers (these were modified and rebadged Yamahas) I bought three and I took these back to Meyer Sound to have them repaired. At that time Meyer was no longer using Yamahas and they gave me an exchange credit for brand new Meyer built MS-1401 drivers. I bought another UPA-1A horn and paired these with three Meyer MS-12 twelve inch woofers and used the three 2-ways as my LCRs in my first home theater.

    I wish I had more useful info, but that may give you additional clues to follow.


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    Thanks, any information is helpful, yeah they don't appear to resemble Yamaha diaphragms to me. Every one I've seen has the impedance measurements ground off like mine. Maybe a dumpster diver back then rescued all these 1402's that are out there, there was a lot of that back then in Berkeley. My favorites where the scharfenberger chocolate factory and the triple rock brewery dumpster, every night it had six packs just sitting in there. I'm getting parts together, going to measure everything and post as soon as I've learned to use rew.

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