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Thread: Crossover help and general cfor Jbl d130 Meyer sound ms-1402 in 4560 cabinets

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  1. #1
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    Crossover help and general cfor Jbl d130 Meyer sound ms-1402 in 4560 cabinets

    I stumbled on some really rough JBL 4560 cabinets and four early d130's, all different, one with the Ampex badge one Jim Lansing smooth back, all 8 ohm, reconed. Also got these Meyer 1402's, 16 ohm, haven't been able to find much about them. Early Altec looking blue bodies, maybe the same as th 1401? I would love to pair the woofers with some JBLs drivers, but I don't foresee being able to afford that anytime soon. Designing a crossover is WAY out of my depth math wise and as much as I know I should start by learning all the theory and math I need to, that's just not something I'm going to have the time for, as much as I'd love to. The little I do know I've taught myself, I can repair/build old amps following a schematic for the most part, use a meter, etc, just the basics, and fabricate anything I'd need. So I really just want to get these in use without too much hassle, maybe start with just a cap for the drivers, start listening and then dialing it in. Any suggestions? I've looked at the n2400, n2600, je labs simple crossover, adjusted for my drivers would one of those be a good design, I haven't found the schematic for either jbl crossover though. I know, I'm pretty clueless, still learning the basic principles of speaker and crossover design, I'm hoping to get all the help I can. Thank's for any help, I really appreciate it, but if anyones only advice is to get a book on electrical theory and start reading, maybe don't chime in, it's already noted.

    As for the rest of it, I'd love any input as far as the cabinets. They are way to big for my space and in rough shape but could be made into some industrial looking beauties with a lil work. I've read that as bass horns they lack a lot of bass. Mine are the ones with a horn on top of the woofer. If I keep them I'll probably have to cut them down, remove the ports top and bottom and make them into a simple enclosure, just keeping the wave guides. I'm guessing this would mean even less bass, which is fine by me, I don't listen to much Skryllex. To my ear they sound beautiful, I've seen a lot of mixed opinions on their sound/value but the reproduction of acoustic instruments is the most lifelike I've heard. Do the old Altec 15'' drivers really sound that much better, more base? Maybe in the future I could use them as the basis of some Altec A7's if I ever have that kind of space. would it be sacrilege to start butchering them? Also in the event I am one day able to afford them, what Altec or James B. Lansing drivers and horns would be a good pairing for that smooth back d130?

    Here's the only info I've found from Meyer paired with ms15 low frequency driver in 500a system;


    highpass slope 12db per octave

    lowpass slope 6db per octave
    cutoff 1000hz
    running a Dynaco st70
    http://pdfstream.manualsonline.com/a/a7ca3576-4733-40a6-98c8-fc979b253f63.pdf

    Thanks for any and all help, Evan!

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    Now that I've looked closer the Ampex is a 150-4 and sadly one of the 130's is a fender, what you don't know...

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    Evan,

    Would be sad to see all that gear going in the dumptster specially since you paid for it.

    Widget's insight is often wisdom too, not just insight. He's a trained ear and has critical listening ability, which you may not have yet. In other words your performance expectations might be at a different level than his.

    Personnaly, I'd hate to just get rid of the stuff without at least trying to make something out of this whole bunch of drivers you got. But initially would keep things simple and consider this simply as a testing phase to determine if there's hope or not.

    No need to invest much money that you may regret later, simply do the basics. For example, if DCR measures ok then you can go to next step, making acceptable boxes to load them in, do some more measurements, and also extensive listening with different program material.

    if they sound awful then you'll have no choice, but if their sound is acceptable to your ears then you can go further. Moving step by step will keep you from having too high expectations initially, plus avoid throwing lots of money at a potential problem. Knowing when to stop or keep pumping is part of the game in speaker building.

    Start with the drivers you judge to be the most "hopefuls" among what you have and take it from there.

    Richard

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    The Meyer 1401s that I've seen are rebranded Yamaha drivers and AFAIK the diaphragms have long been unobtainium so I think I'd be a bit more tender with them than a first order high pass filter. Maybe these https://www.ebay.com/itm/304155561360 ? There is also a Meyer 1401M that looks like a rebranded Emilar so not Altec looking at all. Post some pics of what you've got.

    Starting with a disparate collection of drivers like this really cries out for getting up to speed on using measurement software like REW or Open Sound Measurement to evaluate the drivers number one and then to sort out the best options for crossovers using a DSP crossover and bi-amping. Test and listen til you're satisfied with the results and then build a passive crossover to match those characteristics.

    The only difference between the Fender frames and the stock JBL musical instrument D130 was the paint job at least when I was reconing they used the same kit. If you've got some earlier hi-fi d130 then yes even more variables. The biggest issue with the 130s will be what cones they have, in what condition and what level of charge the Alnico magnets still have. All three of these are hard to answer without measurements.

    If you're really feeling lazy just buy some off the shelf 1200 hz passive crossovers on Parts X and give them a listen. Meyer used a lot of tricks in their mostly bi-amped speaker systems like sliding crossover frequencies and well calibrated limiters to keep the HF drivers alive so act accordingly in trying to get these working on the cheap.

    Also do tone tone sweeps on the 4560s. Lose plys, braces ( there weren't enough braces to begin with on the factory boxes to begin with, after market baltic birch boxes were often better ) and glue joints are not uncommon on older boxes especially those used in portable service.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evang View Post
    ... So I really just want to get these in use without too much hassle, maybe start with just a cap for the drivers, start listening and then dialing it in....

    Thanks for any and all help, Evan!

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    Evan,

    I didn't find much Meyer MS 1402 info either.

    RE "So I really just want to get these in use without too much hassle, maybe start with just a cap for the drivers, start listening and then dialing it in."

    I can understand this. Meyer's 1khz cutoff is with a 12 db high-pass crossover, however with a single cap's 6db crossover you need to move the frequency higher up to at least 2khz in order to protect the mid driver. Shouldn't be a big problem here since the D130 is an extended range woofer that should be able to go to 2khz or more. As such, the woofer will be more directional but on the other hand a 4560 cab is directional anyway on a good part of its range due to the horn.

    If you decide to go with 6db get a good quality cap with close tolerance (2-5%), not a cheap 20% tolerance cap as this might shift the frequency too much.

    You would probably still need to put a coil in series with the woofer for the low side of a 6 db crossover since these woofers often have a rising response higher up, like MI woofers do. You'll need to assess this further.

    Its likely, due to different driver sensitivities, you'll have to pad down the mid driver to match the woofer.

    D130 efficiency is rated 6.7%, and 6.3% equals to 100 db sensitivity, half-space, 1W/1M, piston band (per Eargle), so 100db is pretty much what it is. Then the cab's horn adds about 6 db on the woofer's sensitivity.

    RE "cut them down, remove the ports top and bottom and make them into a simple enclosure, just keeping the wave guides. I'm guessing this would mean even less bass, which is fine by me, I don't listen to much Skryllex. To my ear they sound beautiful, I've seen a lot of mixed opinions on their sound/value but the reproduction of acoustic instruments is the most lifelike I've heard."

    Yes, down sizing the cabs and getting rid of the ports means there will be practically very little low frequencies left.

    For the type of frequency response a 4560 cab provides look at the document attached (page 3)

    I assume the type of 4560 cab with mid horn at the top you refer to is similar to JBL's 4662/4663 (pic)

    EDIT: BTW the 1979 version shown of the 4662/4663 used the JBL K130 woofer. Later JBL used the E140 woofer in it (4663A).

    Most issues Riley mentioned would still apply (recone, demag magnet?, measuring, etc.)

    Richard

    JBL Low Frequency Enclosures 4520-4530-4550a-4560a-4508-en3-en5-en8_manual.pdf

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    Senior Member grumpy's Avatar
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    Might also do some homework on what a fender d130 and Ampex 150-4 are worth, if in good condition.
    You sounded disappointed.

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    Riley,

    RE "2225 recone kits weren't a fit for D130 frames"

    Before writing about a D130 possibly having a 2225 recone kit, as mentioned by the OP, i checked in the attached JBL document. Unless there's an error or typo in that official info i assumed its right.

    Afterwards, the OP updated his mention to D130A and showed D130F too, which changes things because the D130A is not compatible with others as indicated in doc.

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    You're right, I'm wrong. I just did a quick look at my 'goes into' list before I posted which isn't quite a comprehensive view as the document you used.

    Quote Originally Posted by RMC View Post
    Riley,

    ...
    Before writing about a D130 possibly having a 2225 recone kit, as mentioned by the OP, i checked in the attached JBL document. Unless there's an error or typo in that official info i assumed its right.

    ...

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    Omigod, Thank you!!! I was beginning to give up hope that there was an audio forum where knowledgable people answered questions, even naive ones, instead of belittling people for a lack of knowledge. Seriously thank you guys for the time, knowledge and wisdom, and just behaving like human beings. Yeah, gotta admit I was hoping for a quick and dirty solution so I could go work on motorcycles but it doesn't look like I'll find anyone who's built a crossover for the 1402, making good things is rarely easy.

    Meyer sound wouldn't give out any info but said it was the predecessor to the 1401. do you guys think it will pair well with the jbl's? Richard and Riley, that's great info for getting started, it looks like learning to use rew is going to be the only way to really make a proper crossover, but I have some other options in the meantime. thanks, got a lot to look into. Can anyone give me info on that Ampex 150-4, opinions, best applications.

    Grumpy, I was a bit disappointed, not with the Ampex but with the fender, mostly because I was told all of them were the same, which clearly they're not, my own fault really, the Ampex was a bonus, I like em weird. I read the fenders have a smaller voice coils, don't sound as good, maybe bs?Cosmetically they are mostly rough some nice, but fully serviced at some point with new cones, I think 2225h cones, which I assume is less desirable, I don't really care, I think they're beautiful. Still really new to all the Vintage JBL so I don't really know what I've got, I'll post pictures. Any links/suggestions for getting started with rew besides the roomeqwizard? Thanks.

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    Meyer didn't make drivers of any kind but instead specified custom tweaks to other vendors existing drivers. Post pictures of the Meyer drivers you have and someone will recognize the OEM model and have some suggestions. 2225 recone kits weren't a fit for D130 frames but D140 kits would so heavy ribbed cones with paper domes may be D140 cones with substituted domes or might just be any old after market kit. Again very hard to tell what you have and what direction you can go without measuring.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evang View Post
    ...

    Meyer sound wouldn't give out any info but said it was the predecessor to the 1401. do you guys think it will pair well with the jbl's? ...

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    The d-130a has a cone that is stamped 52254 and has in chalk e 140-8, am I right in thinking that this and the apex are the earliest bodies?

  15. #15
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    RE "do you guys think it will pair well with the jbl's?"

    I'm guessing that it should be acceptable if you do your homework. Hard to say any further when Meyer doesn't want to release any relevant info...

    RE "I think 2225h cones, which I assume is less desirable, I don't really care,"

    You mention the D130 might have 2225 cone kits, this brings a caution note for use in a 4560 cab (PDF doc i posted, same page 3 but bottom left). The 2225 has much more LF excursion capability than the old D130 or even K130.

    Shortly, the space between the woofer and the horn is small in a 4560. Drivers with more cone travel capability could have their cone strike the horn's throat with LF at higher sound levels. To avoid this you simply drive at more conservative power input than what such driver would be capable of. It would still be pretty loud when considering the 103 db or so sensitivity of the woofer (97 db for 2225) plus the horn's contribution (6db).

    Richard

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