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Thread: Choosing a Mid-range that Fits.

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by mortron View Post

    Toddalin, do you use your LPads often on your speakers?

    Yes and no. Yes, to turn off a speaker for testing the others. No, because all of the values in the crossovers are geared for all of the drivers to run at "full tilt boogy." When you turn the L-pad up all of the way, it is essentually removed from the circuit except for the contact point which is how I run them.

    I will typically engage the UHF switch unless the recording has lots of HF hash, in which case I will turn it off.

  2. #17
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    Thanks for the replies.

    As it stands, I need to make some cabinets to house the 2251J and am curious the volume you settled on. I see the JBL enclosure guide lists a 1.5cft enclosure for E120 midrange, but that sounds a bit large, especially given the 2251J doesn't need to be in an 80hz tuned enclosure. I suppose using the volume of the 4345 midrange cone would be closer to what I am needing?

  3. #18
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    I simply used an 8" wide x 3/4" thick "shelf" board and made a ~11.5" x 11.5" x ~8" deep box adding a face and back from (IIRC) MDF. I also have a rear port made from a PVC coupler, reemed out a bit, and lined the inside of the backs with felt cloth.





  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by RMC View Post
    Hi mortron,

    Somewhat late to the party, but this might help you.

    The Enclosure Guide's 1.5 CF, Fb 80hz, is good for E120 as woofer in a two-way system for example (read the note at bottom of page 1 of Enclosure Guide, the E120 is not mentioned there, indirectly confirming my statement).

    As i understand it (since i'm late), your driver application would be to use E120 for low-mid. Checking the TS for the driver, Qts is very low at 0.17 which helps in reducing box size to house the driver.

    In such application driver is usually housed in a small closed sub-chamber. But the best way to know for sure which size box is to model the driver in speaker design software.

    According to Eargle's Loudspeaker Handbook the upper limit for a 12" is 875hz @ DI 6 db, and somewhat stretched is 1313 hz @ DI 10 db. So more directional (this being a musical instrument driver it most probably has a rising response that you may benefit from, with the inconvenience of having more directivity).You decide if proper

    Driver EBP is 315 in principle driver more suitable for horn, but not necessarily a no here. Regarding the Graphs:

    First assuming 2 Pi box placement, then second one with baffle diffraction loss (no 2Pi), somewhat better for low-mid (you're actual result may be somewhere in between)

    Standard QL 7, this can be increased to QL 10 due to small box size, if well made, higher QL means little smaller box can be used because of reduced losses, but at some point need to have enough volume to fit the driver in.

    1 or 1.5 cf response graphs i get from modeling are practically the same.

    At first sight, 1 cf sub-box seems feasible as per dimensions given to me by Winspeakerz software, with a little "cheating"/adjustments (H vs W vs D).

    I'll post my graphs and sub-box dimensions later tonight, gotta go now...

    Richard
    Richard,

    Thank you for such a thought out reply. I am not using an E120... apologies if there was confusion. I simply mentioned it as it was the smallest enclosure on the list and E120 would alloy one to find it in the list... Apologies. Or am I mistaken and your math is for a 10" like the 2251J? Regardless I feel I've learned something and appreciate it.


    Toddalllin, thanks for your pics. You mentioned a read port. Is a port essential to using the 2251j down to around 300hz??

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by mortron View Post
    Richard,

    Thank you for such a thought out reply. I am not using an E120... apologies if there was confusion. I simply mentioned it as it was the smallest enclosure on the list and E120 would alloy one to find it in the list... Apologies. Or am I mistaken and your math is for a 10" like the 2251J? Regardless I feel I've learned something and appreciate it.


    Toddalllin, thanks for your pics. You mentioned a read port. Is a port essential to using the 2251j down to around 300hz??
    Probably not. But I ran them open back, closed back, and with the port and preferred the sound with the port best. Recognze that Wilson "vents" their smaller drivers too.

    Because of the fins on the heatsink, it is necessary to mount the speakers the same way in both cabinets (i.e., the leads won't look symmetrical).

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    I will have to take a look at them, but I presume you mean because the fins should run vertical?

    In regards to the different enclosure types used, how would you compare/contrast the closed, open and ported designs? Also, did you use the same enclosure for all those alignments?

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by mortron View Post
    I will have to take a look at them, but I presume you mean because the fins should run vertical?

    In regards to the different enclosure types used, how would you compare/contrast the closed, open and ported designs? Also, did you use the same enclosure for all those alignments?
    Yes, because the fins can either let the air flow through them on its way to the port, or the air has to flow around them on its way. The fins create "channels".

    Yes same cabinets. The open back was lacking "body" and there seems to be a touch more "openness" with the port open rather than closed.

  8. #23
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    Is there any benefits to a larger enclosure for the 2251J in your post Toddalin? Or is it just wasted space?

  9. #24
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    Probably wasted space to go much larger. But I do feel a substantial amount of air moving through the port on the rear at lifelike volume levels (1.65" ID x 2.5" long).

    Really captures a Strat the way it is supposed to sound. The L200/300 just don't get it.


  10. #25
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    Off Topic Warning

    Quote Originally Posted by toddalin View Post
    Really captures a Strat the way it is supposed to sound. The L200/300 just don't get it.
    Hi Todd,

    You and I have disagreed in the past on the usefulness of YouTube videos, but the one you posted here is quite useful. Not so much for the sound quality of your room, but rather to better understand the system requirements an individual might have. Had you posted the name of the artist and of the song being played I would have missed your meaning completely. I don't listen to music like this, Voodoo Child by Stevie Ray Vaughan, (had to use Schazam for that info) and so never would have understood where you were coming from.

    I prefer a speaker with a more laid back sound that is capable of capturing texture, micro dynamics, stage depth and width etc. My personal speakers which please me completely would likely disappoint you playing this type of music. A high sensitivity system with a more forward sound (we used to call it a presence peak) is going to make this type of music sound much more immediate and "real".

    I'd submit this partially explains how someone can say that speaker A is crap and speaker B is pure music, when another listener might have the opposite opinion. The same is likely true regarding electronics and other aspects of this hobby. I'm sure this is self-evident to many of you, but once again I'm late to the party.


    Widget

  11. #26
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    As a postscript, I gave the 1968 Jimi Hendrix version of Voodoo Chile a spin. Damn! That is a magnificent living breathing recording with air, space, depth… Stevie Ray Vaughan’s 1984 recording is squashed and lifeless.

    In general I am not a rock guitar fan… prefer the jazzier guitar style of folks like Mark Knopfler, but Jimi Hendrix was beyond gifted.


    Widget

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    As a postscript, I gave the 1968 Jimi Hendrix version of Voodoo Chile a spin. Damn! That is a magnificent living breathing recording with air, space, depth… Stevie Ray Vaughan’s 1984 recording is squashed and lifeless.

    In general I am not a rock guitar fan… prefer the jazzier guitar style of folks like Mark Knopfler, but Jimi Hendrix was beyond gifted.


    Widget
    I think I have the JH version on CD. I'll have to record that for comparison.

    A Strat though a Cry Baby should sound like a Strat through a Cry Baby (and usually Marshall) and they have a definite signiture and are not "laid back." They are supposed to be "in your face."

  13. #28
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    One can go on YouTube and find a direct recording of the track and compare it to that made of someone's system to hear the fidelity the system to the original as well as the effects of the room. My room is actually quite lively.



    I think mine hold up quite well and you can hear how nice and sharp the transients are.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by toddalin View Post
    A Strat though a Cry Baby should sound like a Strat through a Cry Baby (and usually Marshall) and they have a definite signiture and are not "laid back." They are supposed to be "in your face."
    Perhaps, but in my opinion, raspy and screeching alone does not make it great.

    Quote Originally Posted by toddalin View Post
    One can go on YouTube and find a direct recording of the track...
    I guess I should have been more clear. I played back a few seconds of your YouTube video on my laptop and used Shazam to discover what I was listening to. I then went downstairs and played back a 176.4kHz 24bit file of the record through my system... for the Jimi Hendrix version, the best I had available was Red Book CD. It didn't matter, even in hi rez, the Stevie Ray Vaughan track sounded lifeless.

    Quote Originally Posted by toddalin View Post
    I think I have the JH version on CD. I'll have to record that for comparison.
    Don't record it. Play it. Listen to it. And enjoy it! It is phenomenal.

    And it too is pretty much "in your face". Please give it a good listen. Then tell me if you don't agree that Mr. Vaughan's version lacks something.

    To the OP, I apologize for the distraction.


    Widget

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post

    I'd submit this partially explains how someone can say that speaker A is crap and speaker B is pure music, when another listener might have the opposite opinion. The same is likely true regarding electronics and other aspects of this hobby. I'm sure this is self-evident to many of you, but once again I'm late to the party.


    Widget
    I think this is mostly due to coloration and inexperienced listeners who look for a specific effect, like boomy bass or punchy bass or forward midrange. I think the perfect speaker should be able to play any kind of music flawlessly and make it enjoyable. Of course it will also expose the flaws of the recordings that might have been masked by a lesser setup thus making that setup sound better.

    But at the end it's a personal choice, and a setup you might have liked 10 years ago can be dissapointing in the present day.
    My avatar: 4520 loaded with 2225H on E140 frames,
    1x 2202H on custom front loaded horn, 2x 2426 on 2370.

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