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Thread: Choosing a Mid-range that Fits.

  1. #1
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    Choosing a Mid-range that Fits.

    Hey all, apologies if the wrong sub forum, but am looking to figure out what kind of mids to incorporate into my system. I run active setup with a DBX Driverack 260.

    The bass will be a JBL2245, and the HF unit for now is a Celestion CDX1-1745 on a QSC clone guide. Not all JBL, no, but a starting point. I suppose the go to would be to flow the 4345 design principles?

    The usual 4345 crossing the 2245 over at 290hz (IIRC) seems to be quite common. My boxes for the 2245 are 8 cubic foot and was considering initially just using them as subs ala the B460. The internet is full of 2 way designs and the like, and folk like Zilch developed the the Econowave, which is very well documented. Choosing a design of finding inspiration for one is tough. Fortunately the HF section is documented elsewhere and isn't totally alien. The 2245 in 8cf is familiar enough, that I am not concerned about how they will perform. It's picking the mid to fill the hole that has be scratching my head.

    Assuming I want to keep it as JBL as possible, I have considered a range of drivers from 10-15" including the 2123h, 2251j, 2206h, 2225/6h and so on. It would seem if taking the 2245 to almost 300hz, the 2123h is a wise choice. Using a 1" HF unit now means I need to cross higher than say a 2445. The Celestion can be crossed low enough that a 12 isn't out of the question, and some designs like Pi4's from Parnham cross a 15" to a 1".

    The 15" is a lot less appealing with a 2245 in the mix. I don't know if I am looking to clone anything specific at this point. The 2251j is a 10" but usually found in quads and 16ohm. I realize they're not 2123h drop ins, but they are more current 10" offerings and a little more common. I don't think I want an MTM setup. Not sure how hifi folks employ (or if they do) the 2251j.

    Sourcing many of these drivers isn't as easy as it was a few years ago even. Naturally the 2206 and 2226 are a little more common finds given their age or lack of. I've considered alternative brands, but that pursuit led me to "we don't have any to send you, but we charged your card" and am getting fed up waiting on bad actors, and have a big hole in my setup.

    TLR - I am looking for a 10-15" driver to go between a 2245h and 1" driver. Not sure if I go with a higher XO 3 way or like a 2 way with a sub.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Eaulive's Avatar
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    If you can put your hand on a set of 2202s, I highly recommend them!
    I used 2119 and 2118 in the past and they were also sounding good, although they don't have as extended a range as the 2202 IMHO.
    My avatar: 4520 loaded with 2225H on E140 frames,
    1x 2202H on custom front loaded horn, 2x 2426 on 2370.

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    I listen every day to a pair of 2206's crossed over at 1100 hz into a pair of 2426s on 2344 horns and they sound fine. I use a single 2226 as a sub since the 2206s have no trouble working down to 90 hz. I've tested the same set up with a 2202H that I've had since the 80s and it sounds very slightly better near crossover but I have yet to find a match for it ( and may never ). I've got a pair of single 2226 boxes that I'll use as lows if I ever do find another 2202 and move my crossover from 90 hz up to 250 where I've found the best sounding combination to be. The lightweight, curved cone of the 2202 really does sound better than the heavy, stiff cone of the 2206 ( or any dedicated bass speaker ) as you get closer to 1 kHz but at then any twelve crossing over into a 1" compression driver is to my ears the most pleasant sounding home hifi combination. Much better sounding than the 15" into the same horn / driver combo. B&C makes some nice light coned 12" mid bass drivers if you can't find any old JBLs.

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    @Mortron

    A little bit of Reading for you

    Follow the other links found within that thread ( for some other opinions ).


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    I use 2251Js with 2241H and Heil AMT.

    I run these as a 2.5 way in that the 2251J has no high pass crossover cap but uses its natural roll off from 300 Hz down. When I did put a 30 mF cap in series, it did reduce the low end and volume a bit (which it really needs), but the really critical lowest frequencies only decreased by about 1-2 dB. I guess the impedience peaks in this area and as the impedience goes up, the effectiveness of the cap is essentially lost. Based on that premise, I felt it better to not run a cap and take advantage of the additional volume available as well as the better integration with the 2241. I cross them over to the Heil at ~1,800 Hz. This is just before the 2251s show an major increase in volume and the roll off takes this out.

    The 2251s were used in a horn enclosure and very few people have found how to correctly apply them to a home setting. There is a guy located outside of LA who has/had a shiite-load and was selling them on ebay for, IIRC, $130/pr. He even matched the pairs to get the dc resistances the same or at least withn 0.2 ohm. NOW HE SELLS THEM FOR 4/$150 AND STILL HAS A SHIITE LOAD!!! I mean..., come on, $37.50 each!!! That's probably about 10% of JBL retail!

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/25506166496...YAAOSwpYNg05ru

    BTW, if you want 2123Js, there is a beautiful pair in Bakersfield that are/were recently listed on C/L. No affiliation.

    https://bakersfield.craigslist.org/e...342516052.html




  6. #6
    Senior Member Eaulive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riley Casey View Post
    B&C makes some nice light coned 12" mid bass drivers if you can't find any old JBLs.
    True! Before having the 2202s in my 4520 stack (avatar) I had B&C 12PE32 in them, very pleasing as well and very dynamic for mid-bass.
    My avatar: 4520 loaded with 2225H on E140 frames,
    1x 2202H on custom front loaded horn, 2x 2426 on 2370.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eaulive View Post
    True! Before having the 2202s in my 4520 stack (avatar) I had B&C 12PE32 in them, very pleasing as well and very dynamic for mid-bass.
    I use the B&C 12PE32 in my double 12 mid hi boxes, a very clean dynamic light weight cone mid bass
    speaker and very efficient at 101db.

    My stage monitors are loaded with JBL 2262 and 2265 speakers.

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    Lightbulb

    Thanks for the replies thus far. Your posts gave me lots to read and think about.

    Whilst still torn on which driver would work best, the 2206 was always seeming to stand out as a good choice, and based on what I read since posting this, it would be a safe bet for sure. Looking at the graphs, it looks like I can get away with using them as a 2 way+ sub crossed much lower than a 10" like the 2123/2251.

    The 2123J on CL that were posted are super clean! Wow. Good price too but a bit far from my part of Canada. The 2251 guy on eBay's always got the quads, but some look pretty rough and I can't tell if the cones look all stained or what. Also I never realized there was a 2123J, I only knew of the 2251J. It always seemed weird to me a 16ohm woofer used as a single but I guess it doesn't matter if I'm running active and have the power for it. They are super well priced tho! I keep trying to avoid buying stuff I don't necessarily need at the time, as I have been a sucker for a good deal many times. Can only hoard so much heh.

    I was tempted by a pair of 2262 not long ago, and they were fairly priced I think. I was apprehensive for some reason, thinking the 2206 would be better suited for some reason. Another post I saw mentioned it's very similar tech to the 2216's coil. Differential drive?

    In the linked thread... The two graphs EarlK overlaid were pretty impressive, and the 2206 looks smoother, but he also mentioned it could be the smoothing applied that explains the difference. I found it interesting the response above 2khz to 3khz looks very similar in the shape, but ones a bit smoother... I presume the response in this range is what a 12" does in that frequency band? Not that I want to take it that far, just that I noticed the similarity in the shape of the peaks up there. Breakup I guess is the term?

    I saw someone using a 2206 crossed about 800hz and found 1000hz to be better for their system. Would it be safe to assume I could cross to a compression driver around 1200hz? There was a question about the flatness to 2khz and whether it was legitimate. I presume it would be the case, and that crossing a little higher than 1000hz is not impossible?

    B&C... I read lots of good stuff from them. I dunno if I would buy them locally and shipping woofers may get expensive.

    2206 vs 2262 is what it seems like it should be between for me. Comparatively it would seem they both have lots going for them, and no one a clear runaway. Do I go with the ferrite magnets and the classic? Or do I go with newer tech and a neo magnet? Is it a matter of whatever is available? Whatever is cheapest? The prices for bread and milk are hard enough to keep track of these days, I have no clue what either of these drivers should be selling for.

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    Many of the benefits of Neodymium over ferrite as magnet material are superfluous in finding drivers for home hi-fi use rather than portable PA applications. When the price and availability of Neo changed abruptly ( most comes from China ) JBL quickly limited the drivers they used it in to those speakers where it was absolutely essential - touring pro audio systems that wouldn't work with the added weight and size of ferrite. Many current JBL pro speakers that were once Neo magnets now use ferrite for similar models. Your posts seem to make most of this is fairly academic if you're not trying to recreate the original classic JBL studio monitors but are instead aiming for more of a general idea of the 4355 speakers or what ever model you decide to emulate. If so buy what gets you the sound you want at the price you're willing to pay. Modern high power amps and DSP will paper over an awful lot of differences in final design choices.


    Quote Originally Posted by mortron View Post
    Thanks for the replies thus far. Your posts gave me lots to read and think about.

    ...

    2206 vs 2262 is what it seems like it should be between for me. Comparatively it would seem they both have lots going for them, and no one a clear runaway. Do I go with the ferrite magnets and the classic? Or do I go with newer tech and a neo magnet? Is it a matter of whatever is available? Whatever is cheapest? The prices for bread and milk are hard enough to keep track of these days, I have no clue what either of these drivers should be selling for.

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    Thanks everyone.

    I was considering a pair of 2262 for a bit, but a pair of 2251j came into my life due to good karma or something bigger, so they will be my mids for the time being. Obviously going to be crossing over higher than 80hz, and figure the 4345 crossover points will be sufficient for my bass to mid handoff. It makes me think my current compression driver will not live up to the rest of the drivers heh.

    I guess now I need to see what kinds of success folk have had using the 2251j in a 4345 type setup. My waveguide is the B52 "clone" of the QSC waveguide that some will know of and Celestion CDX1-1745 I have a few here. Not sure if I will stick with them or go full JBL. The idea of a PT guide and JBL compression driver just sounds like it makes sense. I will play with what I have for now. Baby steps.

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    The 8" mid drivers should fill nicely between 2226 woofers and 1" compression high drivers and allow you to move the crossover point for mid to high up to 1500 hz or so making the high driver much happier. In the 4889 Vertec systems the crossover frequency between the 15s and the 8s was 250 hz but with only one in each cabinet you could easily go to 500 hz for better performance from the 8".


    Quote Originally Posted by mortron View Post
    Thanks everyone.

    I was considering a pair of 2262 for a bit, but a pair of 2251j came into my life due to good karma or something bigger, so they will be my mids for the time being. ....

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    Quote Originally Posted by mortron View Post
    Thanks everyone.

    I was considering a pair of 2262 for a bit, but a pair of 2251j came into my life due to good karma or something bigger, so they will be my mids for the time being. Obviously going to be crossing over higher than 80hz, and figure the 4345 crossover points will be sufficient for my bass to mid handoff. It makes me think my current compression driver will not live up to the rest of the drivers heh.

    I guess now I need to see what kinds of success folk have had using the 2251j in a 4345 type setup. My waveguide is the B52 "clone" of the QSC waveguide that some will know of and Celestion CDX1-1745 I have a few here. Not sure if I will stick with them or go full JBL. The idea of a PT guide and JBL compression driver just sounds like it makes sense. I will play with what I have for now. Baby steps.
    Don't cross the 2251J over lower than ~300 hz or run them as a 3.5 way. JBL did put it in one of their big 4-way monitors and IIRC use ~290Hz.

    Above ~2K the 2251 will experience a rise in volume so I cross them over just below this.

    Yes, 1,200-1,500 Hz will work well with the 2421.



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    Your video sounded good so I was happy to find out I could get a pair. I have a Driverack 260 I use currently, but would like to migrate back to passive biamped if at all possible, as I feel it would sound better than using the Driverack. I also have an Ashly XR2000 I like, but when I tried the Driverack, it was clear the Ashly needs some maintenance. Having the Drivers k is huge tho, and don't want to down play it's utility. Until a HF unit is fully determined, I will be keeping it fully active with the Driverack.

    What is the volume of your bass cabinets? I like your setup, as it looks a bit more modern. Am torn between the 4345 type aesthetic and a more modern look like yours. Reminds me of GTs setup too.

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    ~6 to 6.5 cu ft interior. Bigger would be better.

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    I have cabs that are 8cubic ft per so I should be good to start there. I have enough components to get started, and the bass/mid integration will be my starting point as I've not committed to a HF driver, just hoping what I have on hand is going to work, as the drivers were dropped by someone and they were only 2 left. I need to test them still. May have a backup if need be.

    I like the idea now of the 10" and not needing a compression driver that goes too low. Some other posters on forums have said good things of the 2407/2408 HF drivers and have always been kind of curious about them and what other 1" drivers would fit above a 10 well with good HF extension. I'd like to keep it all JBL but not necessarily if it means that it will be detrimental. Im okay with breaking from brand loyalty if there's enough value.

    Toddalin, do you use your LPads often on your speakers?

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