Rob, excellent work, as usual. What is the net volume of the enclosure? What amp/s have you been testing with that you don't feel have enough power? Do you think the 2216ND would work as well as the -1 in the same enclosure?Originally Posted by sebackman
Thank you for all the encouraging comments. This project has consumed a few hours so far. :-)
Emilime, I don't know what the net volume is. Mine are probably a few liters smaller due to additional bracing, bigger driver, longer ports and additional damping. The latter would acoustically probably enlarge the cabinet but the rest would not.
I have no passive XO's in the cabinets so maybe they are where they should be.
The shop amps are dual Alesis RA300's (2x90W RMS) connected to my shop BSS DSP XO. I use two amps to be able to run 3-way, if needed, and use the last channel as direct reference to tara out the electronics when using dual channel measuring. That way I don't really have to calibrate the electronics as I only measure the difference between a "clean" signal after the power amp and the microphone signal.
As far as I understand the difference between 2216Nd and -1 is a thin ribbon of Aquaplas on the rear side of the cone to increase the Q and potentially a stronger magnet to compensate. I have not seen a spec on the -1 but the 2216Nd is in the driver info section here, courtesy by Giskard. However, someone from JBL once told med (right or wrong) that the -1 has a stronger magnet to achieve the lower end in combination with the heavier cone in a passive structure.
This should theoretically give some more deep bass without active filters/DSP. If you run with the original filters you may have to measure the low end and maybe compensate with tone controls/EQ/DSP. That is what the M2 people do anyway :-) . If you go active you are good to goo. Just adjust in the filter/DSP +3-6db @ 30-ish Hz.
I have had both and cannot identify any sonic difference in the all so important midrange.
Happy Friday
//Rob
The solution to the problem changes the problem.
-And always remember that all of your equipment was made by the lowest bidder
Hello Widget
Depends on the software. With mine I can model double flared, single flared and just about any other configuration. Also the instructions that come with them are quite good you end up calculating the length of straight section that joins the flares. Too answer your question I have had issues with port noise on a couple of JBL's but the smaller systems.
Rob
"I could be arguing in my spare time"
Finally after many years the 4367M's are finally live. Still quite a lot of work on curves but promising.
Today is the first day I play music on both of them. I did build a basic streamer with a RPi 4 feeding a BLU-USB digitally (via USB) and then digitally to the BSS DSP, and hence nothing analogue in the chain. The BLU DSP feeds two CTS600 under each 4367. Volume is done in the digital domain in the BSS.
I will move to a different BSS within a few weeks that has digital out card and use SOTA external DAC's. Don't really know it it makes any difference but just because I can and have most of the stuff :-) .
But for now it is pretty enjoyable. I can share the curves later when I'm done.
As of now I will tweak them a little and then compare with my M2/476Be/045 as can be seen in the picture. I will probable also add my LSR6332/LSR6312 and my small Genelec references to compare.
Let the feast begin.
The solution to the problem changes the problem.
-And always remember that all of your equipment was made by the lowest bidder
Nice!!!
Yes Very Nice!!!
Rob
"I could be arguing in my spare time"
Congratulations!
That's a lot of speakers. I can hear your neighbors complaining from my house!
Widget
Yes, very nice work as usual!
Splendid, they really turned out great! I bet it's quite rewarding to be able to finally listen to them after all the time and effort you've put in.
It seems the 2216's knocked out the bear though
Would be very helpful if you could share the dsp-setup; filters, eq etc when ready.
Just out of curiosity, how do your FR usually end up? Do you go for a Harman-like curve, a flat line or perhaps concave?
Damned good work there Rob
Thank you for all the kind words. Now the difficult part starts.
The DSP streamer V2.0 is now operative. I finally settled for a BSS BLU-160 with both digital and analog inputs & output cards. It is configured as a preamp with analog input by RCA, XLR and digital by SPDIF/AES and BLU-Link.
I wanted to take the DAC output a step further so I got two stand-alone E50 stereo DAC’s which are fed digital SPDIF out from the BSS.
There is also a streamer in the box. It is based upon a RPi4 running Volumio OS and feeding the BSS via Blue-Link thought a BLU-USB soundcard. Pretty neat when running TIDAL.
All up to DAC’s kept in the digital domain. I even included a RIAA DSP settings on the analog input, if there should be a temporary urge for vinyl.
There is a remote controlled DSP volume control incoporated in the BSS and the DAC’s also has a remote controlled HW volume control.
The next step will be to set some base DSP curves. So far all I can say is that it is very clean. The 476Be om M2 + 045 on K2S9900 still sounds better, but give me a few weeks. :-).
The solution to the problem changes the problem.
-And always remember that all of your equipment was made by the lowest bidder
Ok, so the 4367M is finished and they turned out quite good.
As mentioned above the streamer is done and in the end I dropped the BSS BLU-USB unit and went for a Toping D10B (USB to SPDIF). The original setup was a BSS BLU-50 DSP with no digital in and hence the incorporation of the BLU-USB to feed digital input (via BLU-Link). After some fiddling I went with a full BLU160 DSP that I equipped with both analog and digital in and out cards and hence I could use the Topping D10B to feed SPDIF in, to keep everything in the digital domain.
I have now spend more hours thank I like to admit to find a good base line for the drivers and some good XO points.
I think we are close but they are so sensitive so any small change changes the outcome very audible. They are very transparent and revealing to the material chosen.
Kind regards
//Rob
The solution to the problem changes the problem.
-And always remember that all of your equipment was made by the lowest bidder
Very clean and gorgeous design… it is a shame we can’t share the actual audio experience as easily as we can share photos. (apologies to those who think watching a video of a hifi suffices)
Widget
Here are some curves for those so inclined
1. JBL curve for 2216Nd-1
2. My curve is similar but a small difference due to cabinet. OBS, composite quasi anechoic curve from several measurements (FF + NF)
3. After countless iterations this is the curve I came up with for the woofer. It is a composite quasi anechoic curve with near field measurements for ports and cone (170ms raw data) and far field with different windowing. Far field is used above 300Hz with a 210Hz baffle step correction applied. 10ms time window is used from 300Hz to 600Hz, 6ms windows from 600-1200ms and 3ms window above 1200Hz.
5. Below is the driver measurement which is also a 9ms window at 60cm. Not bad. XO LR24 @150Hz
4. XO tuned out to be time consuming. In the end I ended with 12db Butter for the driver at 700Hz and a LR24 at 730Hz for the woofer. Not to shabby.
Now its time to give it a few weeks to listen and compare to other systems. All of the ones I have have a feed from a RPI4 so I can switch in real time to compare.
I will return in a few weeks with some findings. For now it has similar sound pattern as my PRO1400/476BE/045 wall mounted 5.2 system and similar to the mid-field reference Genelec system, but time will tell.
I will also move the LSR6332/LSR6312's into the room later to compare.
4 decent systems to compare in real time in the same room with the flip of a switch, that will be fun.
Pretty happy with this outcome, without having an original pair of D2 based 4367 I would argue that my 4357M does hold their ground compared to my memory of he originals. I do have some D2's in the shop but they will go for sale now.
Kind regards
//Rob
The solution to the problem changes the problem.
-And always remember that all of your equipment was made by the lowest bidder
Hi Rob,
How did you approach the EQ of the 4367 WG?
I take it the acquisition of the 4367 WG was luck.
It’s unfortunate that this particular project cannot be experienced by others as its form fact fits more into the sensibilities of residential home decor.
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