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Thread: What Do I Have?? Need Help With Connections.

  1. #1
    Senior Member gmarascortt's Avatar
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    What Do I Have?? Need Help With Connections.

    Hello...
    About a year ago, I answered a CL ad for a Pioneer SX-580 for $30 that I needed for parts. As I was leaving, he asked me if I wanted a Sansui cassette deck. How much? I asked. He said "free". I said I would love to have it. Then it dawned on me to ask if he had any speakers. He said, "you should of come earlier today, I took about 8 pairs to the dump....but I do have a set still in the garage, they were just too heavy to load by myself." To the dump? As we walked into the garage, I saw the back of them from 20 feet away, clearly (2) vintage JBL crossovers in both cabinets. Excitement....then confusion. The large cabinets were nothing I recognized as JBL. They were some kind of custom cabinets. As I went around to check out the front, I spotted some 077 slot/prism tweeters, and holes where drivers once resided(15" hole, and a 4" hole). I didn't want to get too excited, but I asked what happened to the drivers. "Oh...I have the bass speakers in the house....but they are in rough shape." As he went in to get them, the wife comes out with the horns holding them on her shoulders like they were dumb-bells! I could not believe it! In my head, I quickly add up the worth.....$2,000-3,000. I'm thinking he is going to say at least $1,000. Before I ask, he tells me that all the equipment was his fathers who passed a few years prior. The father was a NASA engineer and quite the audiophile. He constructed the cabinets about 10 years prior to his passing and enjoyed the "custom" JBL's daily! The son was not much into music. "How much for the speakers?" I asked. "Well, considering I was just going to throw them out......could you possibly pay $100?? Of course I did not hesitate. Also included were a pair of LE5-2 drivers, LE20 drivers, and NOS LX2 crossovers! And BTW, he said most of the speakers he hauled to the dump were JBL's!

    Here are my components:
    15" LE15A woofers, 8 ohms, recently re-coned and restored @ The Speaker Exchange, Tampa, Fl
    LE85 mid-horn drivers, wax seals intact, 8 ohms
    H91 horns
    L91 lenses
    077 slot/prism tweeters, blue diaphragms, 8 ohms
    LX5 crossover
    N8000 crossover
    Cabinet dimensions are approximately 45"high x 20"wide x 19"deep

    Q #1: What do I really have at the end of the day? What can I compare them to? C50 S8?? 4333??
    Q #2: How do I internally connect all of this? Currently, a speaker cable would connect to an independent spring terminal cup with 2 fuses and not the spring loaded terminals on the LX5 crossovers. I want to install a new jack plate and use binding posts for use with banana plugs. I also want to eliminate the fuses. The confusing part is rewiring and bi-passing the fuses. I can't figure out how to do this. Can someone do a simple diagram of the wiring based on my components? Or point me to a link that might have similar schematics.

    Thank you in advance! Geno
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    JBL:250Ti,18Ti,L77,L96,L112,L36,4412,L80T,Custom3-way
    Altec:604E,1204B,1211A,1231A,920-8B,9849-8B,511Towers

  2. #2
    Senior Member gmarascortt's Avatar
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    More pics

    More pictures.....
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    JBL:250Ti,18Ti,L77,L96,L112,L36,4412,L80T,Custom3-way
    Altec:604E,1204B,1211A,1231A,920-8B,9849-8B,511Towers

  3. #3
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    First of all, you were correct. $100 was a steal.

    Quote Originally Posted by gmarascortt View Post
    Q #1: What do I really have at the end of the day? What can I compare them to? C50 S8?? 4333??
    None of the above. You have an old man's dream system.

    If the woofers were original, you would have an S7 system with added slots.

    Quote Originally Posted by gmarascortt View Post
    Q #2: How do I internally connect all of this?
    I would sell the woofers as is, sell the four JBL crossovers, buy a pair of JBL 2216Nd woofers and get someone to help you build new crossovers... then you would really have something.

    If that doesn't work for you here are images from a JBL crossover guide. The model numbers shown are the pro model numbers and are also for newer versions, but if you follow the illustration on the last page, you will have the correct connections.

    Lastly, we don't know what your woofers' parameters are now that they have been reconed with aftermarket kits, but rest assured your 077s and LE85s are not exactly 8 ohms or 16 ohms, but rather somewhere in-between. Depending on the years produced, the foilcal labels were either printed 16 ohms or 8 ohms, but the actual drivers are all the same. Since yours are printed as 8 ohms that dates them to the '70s and since they were likely pampered by their last owner, they should be in very good shape.


    Widget
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  4. #4
    Senior Member macaroonie's Avatar
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    'I would sell the woofers as is, sell the four JBL crossovers, buy a pair of JBL 2216Nd woofers and get someone to help you build new crossovers... then you would really have something.'

    Broadly speaking I would agree with this this pathway. The old crossovers were not that sophisticated and are now old so the caps ccould well be suspect.

    As an alternative I would consider going analogue / active.
    What that means is you have an electronic crossover that then gives you bass / mid / top as line level outputs. you then have to have power amps to drive the respective driver units.
    This need not be as complicated or messy as it sounds , for example there are loads of good 4 channel amps , QSC , Crown , .
    Compared to the good old days amp power is inexpensive.

  5. #5
    Senior Member gmarascortt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by macaroonie View Post
    'I would sell the woofers as is, sell the four JBL crossovers, buy a pair of JBL 2216Nd woofers and get someone to help you build new crossovers... then you would really have something.'

    Broadly speaking I would agree with this this pathway. The old crossovers were not that sophisticated and are now old so the caps ccould well be suspect.

    As an alternative I would consider going analogue / active.
    What that means is you have an electronic crossover that then gives you bass / mid / top as line level outputs. you then have to have power amps to drive the respective driver units.
    This need not be as complicated or messy as it sounds , for example there are loads of good 4 channel amps , QSC , Crown , .
    Compared to the good old days amp power is inexpensive.
    Thank you for the advice!
    JBL:250Ti,18Ti,L77,L96,L112,L36,4412,L80T,Custom3-way
    Altec:604E,1204B,1211A,1231A,920-8B,9849-8B,511Towers

  6. #6
    Senior Member gmarascortt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    First of all, you were correct. $100 was a steal.

    None of the above. You have an old man's dream system.

    If the woofers were original, you would have an S7 system with added slots.

    I would sell the woofers as is, sell the four JBL crossovers, buy a pair of JBL 2216Nd woofers and get someone to help you build new crossovers... then you would really have something.

    If that doesn't work for you here are images from a JBL crossover guide. The model numbers shown are the pro model numbers and are also for newer versions, but if you follow the illustration on the last page, you will have the correct connections.

    Lastly, we don't know what your woofers' parameters are now that they have been reconed with aftermarket kits, but rest assured your 077s and LE85s are not exactly 8 ohms or 16 ohms, but rather somewhere in-between. Depending on the years produced, the foilcal labels were either printed 16 ohms or 8 ohms, but the actual drivers are all the same. Since yours are printed as 8 ohms that dates them to the '70s and since they were likely pampered by their last owner, they should be in very good shape.


    Widget
    Widget, thank you very much for the advice and information!
    FYI...the LE15A's were re-coned using JBL C8R2235 kits. The previous owner was a NASA electronics engineer and was very meticulous. The 3-car garage was completely filled with electronic testing and analyzing equipment. I would not be surprised if he replaced and tested everything! After I get them operating properly, I will audition and get back with you.
    JBL:250Ti,18Ti,L77,L96,L112,L36,4412,L80T,Custom3-way
    Altec:604E,1204B,1211A,1231A,920-8B,9849-8B,511Towers

  7. #7
    Senior Member gmarascortt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    First of all, you were correct. $100 was a steal.

    None of the above. You have an old man's dream system.

    If the woofers were original, you would have an S7 system with added slots.

    I would sell the woofers as is, sell the four JBL crossovers, buy a pair of JBL 2216Nd woofers and get someone to help you build new crossovers... then you would really have something.

    If that doesn't work for you here are images from a JBL crossover guide. The model numbers shown are the pro model numbers and are also for newer versions, but if you follow the illustration on the last page, you will have the correct connections.

    Lastly, we don't know what your woofers' parameters are now that they have been reconed with aftermarket kits, but rest assured your 077s and LE85s are not exactly 8 ohms or 16 ohms, but rather somewhere in-between. Depending on the years produced, the foilcal labels were either printed 16 ohms or 8 ohms, but the actual drivers are all the same. Since yours are printed as 8 ohms that dates them to the '70s and since they were likely pampered by their last owner, they should be in very good shape.


    Widget
    Any suggestions or recommendations of who could build the correct crossovers for me if I went with the 2216ND-1's?
    JBL:250Ti,18Ti,L77,L96,L112,L36,4412,L80T,Custom3-way
    Altec:604E,1204B,1211A,1231A,920-8B,9849-8B,511Towers

  8. #8
    Senior Member macaroonie's Avatar
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    Ah , you are on the right track now. The 2235H was the go to driver back in them days , and it is indeed a fine unit but not without its shortcomings. Specifically it has a 30g mass ' control ' ring added inside the top of the coil former. While this aids extension at the low end of the spectrum it seriously ( IMO ) compromises the sound quality at the upper end as it approaches handover to the horn. I know this as I have 2235's in a home brew similar to what you are seeking to implement' I knew what was going on with the 2235 and built the system with a 2" exit JBL horn 2380. this is spec'd as a 500Hz throat but that is a little optimistic . I run active so changing X/O frequency is just turning a knob . Anyway I settled eventually at a smidge above 600Hz.
    At that frequency the darkness caused by the 2235 has gone away and I have a clean and airy midrange.
    You are limited by the LE85 combo so addressing that widgets suggestion of flipping the 2235's and getting 2216 is sound thinking indeed.
    The 2216 will play happily up to and beyond the hand over frequency.
    Bass extension is not compromised , I believe the response is very similar to the 2235 at the bottom end.

    Re passive networks. There are a few guys on your side of the pond that will put someting nice together.
    I would begin by looking at the Nelson Pass version of the L300 network.
    I will warn you that once you start on Solen caps and so on it can get pretty spendy.

    Good luck with your project. M

  9. #9
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmarascortt View Post
    FYI...the LE15A's were re-coned using JBL C8R2235 kits.
    This is most unfortunate and very condemning of the reconer. Anyone able to order JBL kits should know better than to install an overhung voicecoil woofer kit in an underhung woofer frame.

    The 2235H cone kit is absolutely incompatible with the LE15A. They will play, but applying any level of power that will achieve “realistic” output will result in mechanical interference and high distortion.

    It is also a real shame as these kits are getting harder and harder to get. There are around 10 different JBL woofer frames that are 100% compatible with the 2235H kits, but unfortunately the LE15A is not one of them.


    Widget

  10. #10
    Senior Member gmarascortt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    This is most unfortunate and very condemning of the reconer. Anyone able to order JBL kits should know better than to install an overhung voicecoil woofer kit in an underhung woofer frame.

    The 2235H cone kit is absolutely incompatible with the LE15A. They will play, but applying any level of power that will achieve “realistic” output will result in mechanical interference and high distortion.

    It is also a real shame as these kits are getting harder and harder to get. There are around 10 different JBL woofer frames that are 100% compatible with the 2235H kits, but unfortunately the LE15A is not one of them.


    Widget
    What? They assured me that the 2235H was the correct JBL replacement kit! Should I contact them....take them back?
    I think they were suppose to use 2215 kits!
    JBL:250Ti,18Ti,L77,L96,L112,L36,4412,L80T,Custom3-way
    Altec:604E,1204B,1211A,1231A,920-8B,9849-8B,511Towers

  11. #11
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmarascortt View Post
    What? They assured me that the 2235H was the correct JBL replacement! Should I contact them....take them back?
    I think they were suppose to use 2215 kits!
    I would definitely be upset and demand my money back. The Speaker Exchange is one of the larger distributors of JBL raw speaker parts, but based on your experience, I would be very leery of having them work on my speakers.

    Proper JBL C16R2215 kits (the correct LE15A kits) have been unavailable for many years, but that doesn't mean that you can't find them as NOS somewhere. The Speaker Exchange has aftermarket kits, but I doubt they are perfect.

    I would demand a full refund and have them apply the money spent towards the 2216Nd woofers.


    Widget

  12. #12
    Senior Member gmarascortt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    This is most unfortunate and very condemning of the reconer. Anyone able to order JBL kits should know better than to install an overhung voicecoil woofer kit in an underhung woofer frame.

    The 2235H cone kit is absolutely incompatible with the LE15A. They will play, but applying any level of power that will achieve “realistic” output will result in mechanical interference and high distortion.

    It is also a real shame as these kits are getting harder and harder to get. There are around 10 different JBL woofer frames that are 100% compatible with the 2235H kits, but unfortunately the LE15A is not one of them.


    Widget
    Would any of the sound and electronics engineers like to give their professional opinions and advise on this matter??
    I need as much information/proof that my LE15A's were re-coned and restored with incorrect JBL rebuild kits.
    Thank you very much.....I really appreciate your help!
    Geno
    JBL:250Ti,18Ti,L77,L96,L112,L36,4412,L80T,Custom3-way
    Altec:604E,1204B,1211A,1231A,920-8B,9849-8B,511Towers

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    What you want is an old copy of JBL's "goes into" list. This was a list of cone kits that would fit and work properly in what frames with notes on changes or mods required to accomplish the substitution properly. It was published for years by JBL for distribution to authorized recone shops. The last version I have is dated 2015 and makes no mention of the LE15A. The closest that list comes is listing a C8RLE15B as the replacement for the 2216 driver. I long ago lost the original paper copy I received at recone school back in 1979 which might have listed that driver but what the 2015 list does include is the drivers that the C8R2235 cone kit will work in correctly and that is these drivers: 2230A, 2231A, 2231H, 2234H, 2235H. Anything else is off the books according to JBL.

    Quote Originally Posted by gmarascortt View Post
    Would any of the sound and electronics engineers like to give their professional opinions and advise on this matter??
    I need as much information/proof that my LE15A's were re-coned and restored with incorrect JBL rebuild kits.
    Thank you very much.....I really appreciate your help!
    Geno

  14. #14
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    The Alnico LE-15 are unique and needs the proper kit.

    Rob
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    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

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    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmarascortt View Post
    What? They assured me that the 2235H was the correct JBL replacement kit! Should I contact them....take them back?
    I think they were suppose to use 2215 kits!
    Are you certain they used 2235H kits? The VC for the 2235H is 3/4" high. The VC for the LE15A is closer to 1/4". I would think that even an amateur would realize there was a mismatch.

    I would think the greatest likelihood would be that they sold you aftermarket brand X something or other and told you that it was original JBL.


    Widget

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