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Thread: Drivers for 2-way home speaker (12" woofer + horn tweeter)

  1. #1
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    Question Drivers for 2-way home speaker (12" woofer + horn tweeter)

    Hello everyone!

    I'm planning for building a pair of home hi-fi speaker for rock/pop/jazz kind of music.

    I own a pair of JBL 4312 for years, I love the sound of it very much.

    Now I want to build a pair of speaker that sounds similar to my 4312. Of course, JBL's drivers are my first choice.

    The speaker would be two-way, using 12" woofer and horn-loaded tweeter, crossover at around 1~1.5KHz

    Here are some drivers on my wish list:

    12" woofer:

    JBL 2212H
    JBL 2213H
    JBL 2214H
    JBL 2262HPL
    JBL 2206H

    Compression driver:

    JBL D2
    JBL D220Ti

    Yet there are several problems:

    1. I kind of know how 2212, 2213, 2214 sound, but seems like 2212, 2213, 2214 are discontinued. Since I may build more than a pair of speaker, I'd like to use drivers that are more available.
    2. I don't know how 2262HPL and 2206H sound, I've googled them and seems they are mainly for PA/stage, not the fist choice for hi-fi.
    3. On JBL's website there are six 24XX compression drivers, they all can be crossed at above 800Hz, but I don't know how they sound. Their frequency respond don't look ideal above 10KHz from the chart.
    4. D220Ti has good high frequency respond from the chart, and reviews are good too. Yet the minimum crossover frequency is 1.5kHz, may be too tight for a 12" woofer.
    5. D2 looks fantastic! But I don't know where to get it.

    So do you have any suggestions for the choice of drivers? I'm pulling my hair now lol
    I'd appreciate your respond.
    Thanks!!!

    Gavin Lin
    Taiwan

  2. #2
    Senior Member RMC's Avatar
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    Hi Gavin,

    First, welcome to the Lansing Heritage.

    You can't have it both ways, hi-fi sound with some drivers being pro, and as you say some been discontinued and you want to use drivers that are more available... Something will have to give.

    For rock, pop i don't see a problem in using the 2206 and Selenium D220Ti. Your question is relevant because in fact i'll be designing in the near future such boxes for a member (now working on designing a pair of satellite speakers to go with the subwoofer he has). I go with what the person has instead of what he should or doesn't have, and usually make it work.

    Can't say will "sounds similar to my 4312." And i doubt it will sound exactly the same but its still a valid design. The 4312 is not a hi-fi speaker but rather a control monitor. One application mentioned by JBL for 2206 is critical monitoring with smooth response (see pic, and response graph).

    The highest recommended crossover for 2206 is 1.5 khz, and min. crossover for the Selenium is also 1.5 khz.

    The Selenium compression driver crossover at 1.5 khz was given on the basis of a 12 db/oct. crossover. You can cheat a little downwards frequency wise if need be (say about 1250 hz) using a steeper xo like 18 or 24db/ oct. for safety. The Selenium has the response to do this and where distortion is still low.

    The only issue i see is that the speaker might be a little more directional than control or hi-fi speakers, but not a major problem in my view. Hope the above will help you. Regards,

    Richard

    P.S. Eargle mentions you can take a 12" up to 1,313 hz (DI 10) and Dickason mentions 1,427 hz (DI 6). Close frequency wise.

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  3. #3
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    12 inch woofer + horn tweeter

    I have access to a pair of 123a woofers and have contemplated a similar project. My thought was to use the crossover form the L 200t3 as a basis. That would require the 2426/ 2342 combo or similar. The 123a woofer could also use the low pass from the Alpha III S70.?.just dreaming for now!

  4. #4
    Dang. Amateur speakerdave's Avatar
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    The big hurdle will be finding the 2342 horns, and then adjusting the low pass of the crossover for that woofer. There are other horns you may find just as satisfactory. Member Zilch—now deceased—worked up a lot of guidance and a kind of ball park variable crossover circuit board for systems similar to that; I think he called it the econowave or something like that. Most of the builders' experience is recorded at Audiokarma and Parts Express, though you may also find some here. You might find it helpful to read up on that.
    "Audio is filled with dangerous amateurs." --- Tim de Paravicini

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    Am considering a similar project and wondered which 12" someone would choose these days and at what price point? Is the 2262h a viable option when factoring drivers like the 220X models? I'd like to cross between 1000-2000hz in a home HiFi situation. Thanks.

  6. #6
    Dang. Amateur speakerdave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mortron View Post
    Am considering a similar project and wondered which 12" someone would choose these days and at what price point? Is the 2262h a viable option when factoring drivers like the 220X models? I'd like to cross between 1000-2000hz in a home HiFi situation. Thanks.
    It's a universe of drivers out there. Maybe you could be more specific.

    Any limitations on your cabinet size? Budget?

    Are you thinking legacy or current production?

    What have you heard that you like?

    Will you be supplementing in the VLF?
    "Audio is filled with dangerous amateurs." --- Tim de Paravicini

  7. #7
    Senior Member RMC's Avatar
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    Hi Mortron,

    Had a quick look around and i'm not convinced at this point the 2262h would be a good choice in a home HiFi situation as you indicate. It appears more like a sound reinforcement driver than a hi-fi one.

    Looked at a couple of JBL applications of the driver and i see, for example, "JBL developed the KP6000 Series Special Edition to address the need for high output sound reinforcement in nightlife applications like karaoke rooms and nightclubs."

    One is not necessarily limited to those applications but they give some indication of what the design engineer had in mind for the driver.

    Also looked at driver T/S (Fs, Qts and Vas) and don't see that you'll get deep bass from these in view of efficiency/ sensitivity and proper box size (Vas is very low) usually pointing in the direction of smaller cab with lesser deep bass. In home hi-fi applications folks tend to want 40 hz bass or less.

    To get deeper bass at a good efficiency you normally need a larger cabinet, whereas what i've seen is JBL prioritized efficiency (frequent in SR) and smaller box size, therefore lower bass suffers.

    I won't tell you which driver to buy and how much you should spend these are your decisions after considering Dave's questions. Regards,

    Richard

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    I am not overly concerned with whether it's a legacy or current product. I'm just limited somewhat by availability.

    Not looking to reinvent the wheel, but am looking for a woofer solution to mate with my B52 1" QSC Clones. The current driver I own is a Celestion CDX1-1745 which performs quite similar to the B&C DE250 and is likely a stop gap until I can afford a better driver. Some options range from a 2425 to a Faital HF108r or HF10AK and anything else that can be suggested. It would depend on the mid used but like the idea of something that crosses around 1-2000hz up top.

    The way I see it, the idea of an "econowave" type 2 way in the spirit of what Zilch came up with isn't far off from what I envisioned. It will be for music primarily. I am not married to any one particular alignment. I just want something that is articulate through the midrange and can support bass into maybe the 40s? Size isn't a concern tho id like to keep width reasonable. My budget is about $200usd per driver I would think. I'm not opposed to spending more or less and buying used is also an option.

    I love JBL products and trust them. The 2206 is always mentioned as being super smooth and looked a good candidate but some 2262 came up somewhat nearby that I saw new. I have considered other companies as well, but am not as good as some at picking drivers off paper and some people have not documented enough about the drivers I can get nearby. I am in Canada so I have some limitations.

    My VLF is relegated to a pair of sealed 12s with EQ and a pair of ported 18s to be implemented in the summer. This could change down the road, I am more concerned with working with what I have and don't have. Having bass options will serve as a stopgap as I experiment with my HF/MF options.

    I also own many of these HF sections (B52/1745) and plan to make multiple identical speakers for a home theatre setup down the road so duplicating the results would be a bonus. I guess this would mean something current or currently available used is a big plus. Anyone had success with anything from another company? Not an Eminence fan FWIW.

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    I'm pretty sure it was Giskard that used a 2206 with the 1400 Array top.

    Ah, here ya go

    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...highlight=2206

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    Ive got dozens of 2262 drivers in a various speakers that I’ve been listening to for over a decade. They work great and I love how light weight they are but I wouldn’t make them a first choice for a home stereo custom build speaker. I’ve been listening to a pair of 2206s in my personal playback playback system for many years as well and they are certainly good sounding woofers as high as 1200 although I cross out of them closer to 1 k because I can. All that said neither driver does well below 80hz and if I wanted a 12” speaker that did something respectable down to say 40 for a custom box build I’d look at drivers from B&C. I’ve become a big B&C fan since discovering their 14” coax driver. I actually sold my Altec 604s to replace them with the B&Cs.

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    Thanks for the feedback. I will entertain some other options. A driver that looked enticing but less efficient was they Beyma 12BR70... They look like on paper they could be good candidates for a 2 way with additional padding on the HF.

    B&C, and Beyma can be had on sale nearby so they do have an extra charm to them.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Anti K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gavin Lin View Post
    Hello everyone!

    I'm planning for building a pair

    I own a pair of JBL 4312 for years

    Here are some drivers on my wish list:
    ::::
    JBL D2
    In that case You have to look closer at 4349 (or 4429) ; clone them or take inspiration. How are they made, what is in there.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Anti K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riley Casey View Post
    Ive got dozens of 2262 drivers in a various speakers that I’ve been listening to for over a decade
    Do they outperform in mid area (ca 300...1000Hz) the 15inch 2216Nd ?
    Same tech, very similar motor: just 12inch vs 15inch

  14. #14
    Senior Member RMC's Avatar
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    Hi Mortron,

    RE "B&C, and Beyma can be had on sale nearby so they do have an extra charm to them."

    B&C drivers (Italy) are nice but usually expensive in Canada. Beyma (Spain) usually little more affordable. Both being in Europe makes them lesser "deals" for us due to currency exchange rate, about $1.60 CAD for one Euro... So there's a fair amount of currency exchange cost built into their prices.

    You might also want to look at Fane (Britain) (fane-international.com), like their SOVPRO series, which are more affordable due to British Pound having a lower value. In Canada Solen.ca sells Fane.

    The on sale drivers you're referring to are probably from Qcomponents.ca which i checked last night for you, looking at B&C 12" woofers. B&C web site shows they make about 20 models of 12", but Q doesn't carry them all, say only about 10 of them, possibly the ones selling the most.

    For some reason every time i check 12" B&C on Q for me (or you), i always seem to end up keeping the same two finalists! Either i'm consistent with myself, or simply obsessed, lol. Well, some have way too small Qts (e.g. .16, .20), and most pretty low Vas, to give you a box size that will have some worthy bass. As i recall their Fs is generally 40hz or so. Haven't modeled them in software though.

    Note on one of the two Q says 12" high efficiency (neo) woofer and on the other says 12" high efficiency subwoofer, but except for "neo" word, these comments should probably be inverted from one driver to the other, that would make more sense in my view.

    Therefore, attached you will find a pdf version i made of Q pages for the two available woofers i deem more suitable for "home hi-fi situation" you mentioned. Regards,

    Richard

    B&C 12BG100 _ 8 ohm 12_ 1000W Neodymium 4_ Voice Coil Woofer.pdf

    B&C 12TBX100 _ 8 ohm 12_ 1000W Ferrite 4.0_ Voice Coil Woofer.pdf

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    The one driver of the two I believe is the one Geddes uses in his custom speaker. Definitely got a good track record with that one. Its wild how many drivers exist out there. And that's just if you know what you want.

    Being an actual engineer must have been hard... Making decisions can be tough!

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