Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst ... 23456 LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 77

Thread: Affordable Preamps & amplifiers? Thoughts on Carver Gear?

  1. #46
    Senior Member SEAWOLF97's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    PDX, ®egon
    Posts
    10,029
    Quote Originally Posted by DerekTheGreat View Post
    I don't know why the stigma of "You can't/shouldn't use a pro amp for home use" exists. .
    not sure WHY either ... my BGW's seem to do nicely.

    classic preamp ==>> https://www.stereophile.com/content/...4-preamplifier
    I know my life would look all right ..
    if I could see it on the silver screen

  2. #47
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Covington, Ohio
    Posts
    746
    Good to hear you have the amps up and running.

    Do you have a high pass filter on the system that could help the woofer from bottoming out.
    Careful, those amps have a fair amount power for those speakers.

  3. #48
    Senior Member DerekTheGreat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    Warren, MI
    Posts
    165
    Quote Originally Posted by SEAWOLF97 View Post
    not sure WHY either ... my BGW's seem to do nicely.

    classic preamp ==>> https://www.stereophile.com/content/...4-preamplifier
    Please correct my ignorance, BGW's?

    That's a nice looking pre, affordable too! Was trying to find another one <$300, I might just try that. Was thinking of a new one from Emotiva, which has a built in DAC and all that. Ever try one?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Caldwell View Post
    Good to hear you have the amps up and running.

    Do you have a high pass filter on the system that could help the woofer from bottoming out.
    Careful, those amps have a fair amount power for those speakers.
    Thanks! It was fun during the window of time I had.

    Yes, I use an Ashly XR1000, have the lo pass set to 200hz/12dB for 2214H's, the rest of that goes to the other components, whatever they are

    They definitely do have too much power. JBL recommends 200w RMS max, but states they can handle peaks of 800w. I'm not sure about that latter part. Either my 2214H's need to be reconed and/or the weird titanium mids & tweeters need to have the foam replaced in them. I was detecting some scratchiness at mid to high volumes. Could also be the recording, those things really shine and reveal in the upper registers. It's the bass department that leaves me wanting more. Everything I read states the 2214H is an incredible woof. But compared to the 128H's in my L150A's, they're flabby & bloated. Running the K2 and MA2402 really tightened them up though! It was a kind of difference. But they can't play very loud before "brap! pop!" I don't know how much of that abuse they can take, so I'm afraid to crank it any more. Reconing isn't cheap, edgewound and I are on a first name basis as a result LoL..

    I think I need a lesson or five about speaker placement. I bet that's what my problems are. Old house, carpet and ancient drapes that ports of the XPL's are firing into. They're about 7 or 8 inches away from the walls (only the left is close to a corner) and toe'd in toward the listening position, which is a couch that is against the wall and about 10ft away from the XPL's. Whatever pointers you fellas could give, I'll listen.

  4. #49
    Senior Member SEAWOLF97's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    PDX, ®egon
    Posts
    10,029
    Quote Originally Posted by RMC View Post
    I used for decades the more affordable Spectro Acoustics preamp model 217R (R for rackmount version) and the no frills EQ model 2102 (removable rackmount supplied), both have been quite reliable (35+ years), still going when i gave them away. Spectro was founded by former engineering collegues of Bob Carver at Phase Linear.
    Richard
    doing some "discovery cleaning" today in my audio graveyard and found a Spectro Acoustics 210R EQ that was long forgotten ... thot of RMC's post regarding SA.

    powers up OK.

    works GREAT ... no noise in controls, quality item ... $375 new in '77 .... here is a web pic, mine is rack mount.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    I know my life would look all right ..
    if I could see it on the silver screen

  5. #50
    Senior Member grumpy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    5,641
    Yes, I use an Ashly XR1000, have the lo pass set to 200hz/12dB for 2214H's
    I think Mike meant a filter to block the lowest frequencies, ... a high-pass filter (on preamps there used to be a 'rumble' filter so turntables wouldn't feedback or put undue/inaudible LF into the amp). A ported system has no protection below resonance and the driver can just uselessly flop around.

  6. #51
    Senior Member DerekTheGreat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    Warren, MI
    Posts
    165
    Oh, thanks for the clarification grumpy. My Marantz pre has a 30hz filter option that I'm not using because the Ashly XR1000 claims to have a 20hz high pass filter already integrated into it. Perhaps I should? I think you're right- the ported design of the XPL could be why the L150A's can approach ear splitting SPL's (woofers never "braap'd" or "popped" right up until the clip lights of the bridged GFA 555 II's twinkled..) but the XPL can't. You guys definitely know more than me and have more experience.

    Seawolf- Cool looking equalizer. I bought a Audio Control C-101 II a year ago, really liked it. Hasn't been in place for several months though, once I changed out the Marantz 510M, equalization wasn't necessary any more. All the great things people (myself included..) used to say about "Marantz Sound" too. Could vintage Marantz be a runner up to Bose? Or is my amp just an anomaly? I started "that game" with a Marantz 4300 bridged for stereo- 100wpc. That thing sucked when compared to the 510M, which sucked when compared to the cheap (by comparison) Adcom GFA 555 II's. I had my 510M gone over by a local tech. They replaced a few things which got the clip and meter lights working again. They also bench tested it, at that time it put down a healthy 305wpc @ 8ohms (factory rating is 256). As much as I hate to say it, it's just a pretty conversation piece or low listening volume unit based on my experience. At least the Marantz 3600 preamp is pretty magical!

    Anyway, was doing some research on the Dynaco preamps, minimal. But, looks like the PAT-5 is what I'd like as they have a tone control defeat switch. Ever listen to one of those? Some manufacturers claim that their circuitry and design is so good a defeat option isn't necessary. Not sure if that's just marketing BS or fact though..

  7. #52
    Senior Member SEAWOLF97's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    PDX, ®egon
    Posts
    10,029
    Quote Originally Posted by DerekTheGreat View Post

    Seawolf- Cool looking equalizer. I bought a Audio Control C-101 II a year ago, really liked it. Hasn't been in place for several months though, once I changed out the Marantz 510M, equalization wasn't necessary any more. All the great things people (myself included..) used to say about "Marantz Sound" too. Could vintage Marantz be a runner up to Bose? Or is my amp just an anomaly? I started "that game" with a Marantz 4300 bridged for stereo- 100wpc. That thing sucked when compared to the 510M, which sucked when compared to the cheap (by comparison) Adcom GFA 555 II's.
    That SA is really well built . Didn't know I had one , still has price sticker from a thrift = $8.95 (probably got on a 50% day )
    Have 2 or 3 of those Audio Control's in a stack somewhere. Never had problems, but just "moved on.."

    Do have one that's kinda fun ... Technics, I think , electronic, where you can do up to 5 EQ setups and store them ... then 1 button instant selections to each for comparisons.. like a car radio.

    I put that SA in my "headboard stack" (creek amp, 18ti's, fed from an Alexa Echo) . Now sounds pretty good. The Creek is an integrated with no tone control and made the JBL's to be too bright and little bass .. the SA sure fixed that up nicely.
    I know my life would look all right ..
    if I could see it on the silver screen

  8. #53
    Senior Member RMC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1,068
    RE "Please correct my ignorance, BGW's?"

    I'm surprised about this, and not a judgement in any way about you, simply because BGW was Crown's nightmare for a while, starting about mid 70's, with the Pro amp success they had (more modern, higher power and better performance).

    BGW 750 was eating Crown's DC 300A lunch (market share) big time with little or no real response from the latter.

    In 1979-80 the Crest Audio P3500 with 400W/cha, in 2 rack spaces only, for the Touring market started taking business away from BGW, and Crown had still not really reacted.

    As i recall, it took the Crown PSA-2 (1990?) to show real competition for BGW and Crest, but it was late.

    Plus the two rack spaces of the Crest allowed more power on board for the same racking which suited Touring companies.

    Don't remember the date here (and no date on brochures i have) but even BGW, within its Grand Touring Amp series (GTA & GTB), added model GTC which was a high power 2 rack space amp to please Touring gigs.

    In the electronics industry things change rapidly since there's a lot of competition. How Crown could have "slept on the switch" for so long before getting serious vs those competitors is beyond me (they're smart folks, good amps, but pretty outdated at the time compared to some others).

    Name:  IMG_2154.jpg
Views: 110
Size:  117.3 KBName:  IMG_2151.jpg
Views: 109
Size:  118.8 KB


    Clear enough to enlarge

    Name:  IMG_2144.jpg
Views: 109
Size:  80.6 KB


    Back side of GTC pic with partial text

    Name:  IMG_2157.jpg
Views: 110
Size:  101.3 KB

  9. #54
    Senior Member DerekTheGreat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    Warren, MI
    Posts
    165
    Cool stuff. Which BGW models would provide a more relaxed or warmer sound? Based on my findings over the weekend, I need at least 400w for the bottom end and probably 300 for the mid and highs.

    I have not compared against the Adcom stuff, but I am really enjoying the Carver TFM 55x on mid & hi detail with the Crown K2 handling the bottom end. Didn't clip either amp this way. Got stuff to be able to play loud enough up top for satisfactory enjoyment of guitar solos and such but afraid I might just need to get subwoofers despite my disdain for them in music playback. That or I need another crossover just to filter stuff below 35hz or so. Trying the 30hz filter on my preamp definitely helped, but source material with deeper/more bass still made the 2214H's break up. Need to use my SPL meter to report back just how loud things are. While listening to ZZ Top, my wife had to go and run for cover. So, how loud do your guys' systems go? What levels make you run for cover? Funny thing is, I consider myself to have sensitive ears. Certain frequencies and stuff really piss them off, I'm always wearing hearing protection on the job or telling others to quit shouting in my ears. But with the right equipment, music doesn't bother me at all. But input from the community will help me figure out where my stuff stacks up and if my goals here are unrealistic and just plain stupid. I'm just going for the possibility of concert level experience. Kind of like how you don't need 500+ horsepower but holy hell is it ever fun and just knowing it's available is like an ace in the hole.. With my current amplification, I can achieve that, but the 2214H's don't seem like they'll live at those levels.

  10. #55
    Senior Member SEAWOLF97's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    PDX, ®egon
    Posts
    10,029
    Quote Originally Posted by DerekTheGreat View Post
    Cool stuff. Which BGW models would provide a more relaxed or warmer sound? Based on my findings over the weekend, I need at least 400w for the bottom end and probably 300 for the mid and highs.
    >>Which BGW models would provide a more relaxed or warmer sound?

    NONE...... they are NOT home hi-fi amps.....MILSPEC built Pro amps that are designed to provide copious amounts of clean, non-colored power.

    The 750 series was the "big power" line, the A-C models were less, then the D-H's did much more.

    I have the 750D, 250D and 203 (plus a 300 something "distribution amp" that have never played with.)

    The BGW model numbers APPEARED to come from power output ..ie: 750 = 375wpc X 2 channels , 250= 125wpc x 2 channels.

    The only warmth from them is physical.
    I know my life would look all right ..
    if I could see it on the silver screen

  11. #56
    Senior Member DerekTheGreat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    Warren, MI
    Posts
    165
    I appreciate the info, Seawolf!

    Hmm. I didn't find any 750's for sale. Really wish I could rent this stuff before committing to buy it. But, it sounds like those amps wouldn't be my cup of coffee. Although, how would others categorize a Carver TFM 55x? I certainly wouldn't call it warm...

  12. #57
    Senior Member RMC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1,068
    Now remember. After some time Crown did fight back, if one can call this a fight, they released with fanfare the input/output comparator (IOC), sort of clip lights! They indicated at the time that because of its importance to users a retrofit kit was available for DC300A for example.

    Well, while other amps were years ahead (BGW, Crest), the IOC represented what Crown had to offer as its first answer, not a substantial "update" to an aging amp...

  13. #58
    Senior Member BMWCCA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    7,244
    Quote Originally Posted by RMC View Post
    . . . BGW was Crown's nightmare for a while, starting about mid 70's, with the Pro amp success they had (more modern, higher power and better performance).

    BGW 750 was eating Crown's DC 300A lunch (market share) big time with little or no real response from the latter.

    In 1979-80 the Crest Audio P3500 with 400W/cha, in 2 rack spaces only, for the Touring market started taking business away from BGW, and Crown had still not really reacted.

    As i recall, it took the Crown PSA-2 (1990?) to show real competition for BGW and Crest, but it was late.

    Plus the two rack spaces of the Crest allowed more power on board for the same racking which suited Touring companies.

    Don't remember the date here (and no date on brochures i have) but even BGW, within its Grand Touring Amp series (GTA & GTB), added model GTC which was a high power 2 rack space amp to please Touring gigs.

    In the electronics industry things change rapidly since there's a lot of competition. How Crown could have "slept on the switch" for so long before getting serious vs those competitors is beyond me (they're smart folks, good amps, but pretty outdated at the time compared to some others).
    I think you've overlooked some of Crown's most acclaimed pro gear in describing their response. Crown's M600 amplifier received a patent for its high-power bridge topology in 1974, a design that made its way into the 2-RU Microtech line by 1984. Next came the Macrotech line in 1992. This was the pro stuff. I always felt the PSA-2 was more of a consumer design for home audio. The only complaint I've ever had with the Macrotechs was how damn heavy they were to move with six or eight in one rolling cabinet. Rolling them down a ramp was almost more dangerous as pushing them up!
    ". . . as you have no doubt noticed, no one told the 4345 that it can't work correctly so it does anyway."—Greg Timbers

  14. #59
    Senior Member RMC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1,068
    Appreciate the comments since you're a Crown man and you have been collecting many.

    First, the case of the M-600. Its a quite different beast (downloaded the manual for a quick look). Monaural amp, designed for commercial or industrial applications, weight 92 LBS!, 8 3/4" height, 3.46V input sensitivity, 1/4" std connectors, etc. (see pic). Not really playing in the same ball game as usual SR amps. Never seen one, or two, in a rack. Might be more appropriate for sound like at a Stock Car Speedway racetrack due to pretty high ambient noise. Also i assume it wasn't a big hit like the DC300A was.

    Microtech in 1984 (other says 1985 but doesn't matter) that's at least 5 years after the 2 RU Crest P3500 which was already Touring in 1979. For the two rack space BGW GTC i don't have a date on it as mentioned before.

    RE "I always felt the PSA-2 was more of a consumer design for home audio." But Crown's own view "... indestructibility for professional sound reinforcement." "The PSA-2 delivers highly reliable, clean power to a demanding market." Their target market does seem to be SR. It was released 1990 as i thought according to spec sheet date. I assume you have your reasons to see it more for consumer home audio and i respect that view.

    Macrotech line in 1992 as you indicated. Didn't forget it, it was simply launched much later than BGW or Crest Audio, but certainly has a nice reputation.

    I think you're right i did overlooked something, the Micro-Tech line, though still a somewhat late response.

    Never knew why Crown took that long to react "forcefully" when competitors released very competitive amps on the market. Conservative company, management or engineering? Maybe you know the answer more than me... And during more recent times they've had many lines, with so many models covering all applications.

    Name:  CROWN M-600.jpg
Views: 97
Size:  147.0 KB

  15. #60
    Senior Member DerekTheGreat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    Warren, MI
    Posts
    165
    Quote Originally Posted by BMWCCA View Post
    ...I always felt the PSA-2 was more of a consumer design for home audio. The only complaint I've ever had with the Macrotechs was how damn heavy they were to move with six or eight in one rolling cabinet. Rolling them down a ramp was almost more dangerous as pushing them up!
    Haven't heard about the PSA-2, I shall look them up. Can confirm about the Macrotech line, the 2402's I have are both incredibly and deceptively heavy. The first time you see one, you'll estimate they weigh about 30lbs but if you go to lift it, you'll be in for a surprise.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. An Affordable Music Server
    By Mr. Widget in forum General Audio Discussion
    Replies: 41
    Last Post: 02-02-2017, 08:20 PM
  2. Top Ten Affordable JBL Consumer Speakers
    By bill8888 in forum Lansing Product General Information
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: 01-14-2008, 08:56 AM
  3. Buy one get one free, affordable means.
    By JBL 4645 in forum Lansing Product DIY Forum
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 02-05-2007, 01:10 AM
  4. Amplifiers, preamps and EQ's Sub-Forum
    By boputnam in forum Forum Feedback
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 02-06-2006, 09:55 PM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •