Full range speaker to 20Hz?

[Steve C 2020]

Hi Steve,

No horns, except for some horn tweeters on the sound reinforcement boxes

XO frequency to the satellites typically around 250-300hz

Satellite boxes often house a 5 1/4" plus a dome tweeter for hi-fi cabs, and a 6" plus a dome in a horn tweeter for sound reinforcement satellites

But there are exceptions to the above, since i have some larger satellite boxes, like an SR pair having a 10" with a special cone and a dome in a horn tweeter, with the latter being able to be crossed over as low as 1500hz with a steep slope since it has an Fs of 750hz (pretty low for a 1" dome). Regards,

Richard

Hi Richard,
That sounds like a solid design. I also am generally using 1” soft dome tweeters (direct radiating). The maximum size mid-range that I use is 6.5”. It seems to sound best if the mid-range is capable of generating frequencies that extend 1 octave beyond (past) X-O frequency (for all drivers). Some companies use plastic cone mid-range / mid-bass drivers but to me they don’t sound articulated (lacking in upper mid-range transients). Maybe other people don’t agree but that is my personal experience. I use traditional paper pulp mids.

My audio passion recently is designing full range towers that measure (relatively flat) from 20Hz to 20Khz. Most people don’t see the need to go below 40Hz but when I listened to speakers that extended approximately to 20Hz, I realized that it is an experience that I appreciate.

[grumpy]

All this talk reminds me of these systems from the 80's... No recollection of how they were measured.

https://www.stereophile.com/floorlou...mps/index.html

https://www.highendnews.info/reviews...ereign-eng.htm

[Steve C 2020]

All this talk reminds me of these systems from the 80's... No recollection of how they were measured.

https://www.stereophile.com/floorlou...mps/index.html

https://www.highendnews.info/reviews...ereign-eng.htm

It looks like the VMPS has some similarities with a line array. On that one the specs are not at all specific.

On the Duntech the specs seem relatively clear but maybe you are referring to the fact that they don’t indicate whether the measurements are in-room or anechoic / GP (ground plane). In that sense I agree. It is always best to look at a response curve that includes notations indicating the measurement details.
Steve

[HCSGuy]

All this talk reminds me of these systems from the 80's... No recollection of how they were measured.

https://www.stereophile.com/floorlou...mps/index.html

https://www.highendnews.info/reviews...ereign-eng.htm

When I was in college (late 80's), I called VMPS and ended up talking to the designer (don't remember his name) and asking him questions about their Tower II, which I think you could buy as a kit. At the time, I was pretty ignorant about speaker design, but had been reading JBL catalogs my entire life. When he told me the woofers had (I think) 2" voice coils and 40oz magnets, I'm pretty sure I chortled and said something that made the discussion proceed downhill rapidly. I remember him saying something about there being many different factors to consider in getting good bass, that I should make some effort to learn speaker design, and have a nice day.

Not surprisingly, I did not buy VMPS speakers. I bought a pair of L100T3's instead.

[RMC]

Steve,

RE "Some companies use plastic cone mid-range/mid-bass drivers but to me they don’t sound articulated (lacking in upper mid-range transients)."

Most of the woofers on-hand are paper pulp cone, though some may have been treated by the manufacturer.

The 10" with special cone i use in the SR pair mentioned doesn't use a plastic cone, but rather the following (from tech sheet):

"The specially formulated cone pulp allows this driver to give a warm and smooth response throughout the bass frequency range and delivers well balanced tonal characteristics..." "Specially formulated cone coating provides HF vocal clarity." The HF vocal clarity mentioned is more low mid than HF since the driver's response extends to almost 2khz then cone breakup peak kicks in. And its not a musical instrument driver, its described as a bass driver.

A small pair of near field speakers i use is described as having "Plasiflex" cones, maybe some type of plastic??

Richard

[Steve C 2020]

Steve,

RE "Some companies use plastic cone mid-range/mid-bass drivers but to me they don’t sound articulated (lacking in upper mid-range transients)."

Most of the woofers on-hand are paper pulp cone, though some may have been treated by the manufacturer.

The 10" with special cone i use in the SR pair mentioned doesn't use a plastic cone, but rather the following (from tech sheet):

"The specially formulated cone pulp allows this driver to give a warm and smooth response throughout the bass frequency range and delivers well balanced tonal characteristics..." "Specially formulated cone coating provides HF vocal clarity." The HF vocal clarity mentioned is more low mid than HF since the driver's response extends to almost 2khz then cone breakup peak kicks in. And its not a musical instrument driver, its described as a bass driver.

A small pair of near field speakers i use is described as having "Plasiflex" cones, maybe some type of plastic??

Richard

Richard,
That is interesting. Does the "Plasiflex" cone basically look like plastic? I am assuming that it is the near field speakers are using the 5" that you mentioned before. In my experience, if the crossover point is low enough (around 2Khz) then they can sound nice but then the max SPL is limited because the excursion ability of the tweeter is limited. Maybe there are some plastic cone drivers out there that sound nice playing all the way up to 3Khz (where they are typically crossed over) but in my personal experience, have just not seen one.

The beautiful thing about speakers (and audio equip) is that we have the freedom to build the system that sounds best to us. With that said, It is always fun for me to listen to other peoples opinion. I always learn something

[Steve C 2020]

Steve,

RE "Some companies use plastic cone mid-range/mid-bass drivers but to me they don’t sound articulated (lacking in upper mid-range transients)."

Most of the woofers on-hand are paper pulp cone, though some may have been treated by the manufacturer.

The 10" with special cone i use in the SR pair mentioned doesn't use a plastic cone, but rather the following (from tech sheet):

"The specially formulated cone pulp allows this driver to give a warm and smooth response throughout the bass frequency range and delivers well balanced tonal characteristics..." "Specially formulated cone coating provides HF vocal clarity." The HF vocal clarity mentioned is more low mid than HF since the driver's response extends to almost 2khz then cone breakup peak kicks in. And its not a musical instrument driver, its described as a bass driver.

A small pair of near field speakers i use is described as having "Plasiflex" cones, maybe some type of plastic??

Richard

This is off topic but do you have TS data for the 2205H? The data sheet that I saw for it didn't seem to have complete TS data.

[Ed Kreamer]

Hi Steve,

You might find interesting, Drews Clues in the perspectives of the JBL library. Drew Daniels, AKA the ancient audiophile. built a whiz bang holy mackrel system out of JBL components. Also some time ago, there was a fellow who built a pair of super subwoofrs using 2 2235's per vented box. They would go down to 15 Hz or so. Each box was 17 ft3. He published his design in Audio Magazine be for it closed its doors. I'm sorry I don't remember the authors name, or the issue of Audio.

I have experimented in my own small listening space, which is also the living room of our abode, running stereo and mono signals to my own Sub type speakers. I get more bass from mono than stereo. I also crossover at 60 hz. I realize each room is different and It might vary from each recording. FYII, am a classical music listener.

Keep on Listening and have fun

Ed

[Robh3606]

Hello Ed

Don't think this is the same article but just want drop it in here as a reference as it's a bit buried in the site!


http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/.../1983-subs.htm


Rob

[Steve C 2020]

Hi Steve,

You might find interesting, Drews Clues in the perspectives of the JBL library. Drew Daniels, AKA the ancient audiophile. built a whiz bang holy mackrel system out of JBL components. Also some time ago, there was a fellow who built a pair of super subwoofrs using 2 2235's per vented box. They would go down to 15 Hz or so. Each box was 17 ft3. He published his design in Audio Magazine be for it closed its doors. I'm sorry I don't remember the authors name, or the issue of Audio.

I have experimented in my own small listening space, which is also the living room of our abode, running stereo and mono signals to my own Sub type speakers. I get more bass from mono than stereo. I also crossover at 60 hz. I realize each room is different and It might vary from each recording. FYII, am a classical music listener.

Keep on Listening and have fun

Ed

Nice !! I have TS data for the 2235. Is it similar to the 2205?

[Steve C 2020]

Hello Ed

Don't think this is the same article but just want drop it in here as a reference as it's a bit buried in the site!


http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/.../1983-subs.htm


Rob

Nice article !!

Actually I don't have anything against Powered subs and a DSP / EQ. It is just that recently I am working on passive speaker projects. My goal is +/- 1.5db 20Hz to 20Khz. Because it is more difficult to engineer, I like the challenge. From an educational standpoint, I learn more (I hope).

[Steve C 2020]

Hi Steve,

You might find interesting, Drews Clues in the perspectives of the JBL library. Drew Daniels, AKA the ancient audiophile. built a whiz bang holy mackrel system out of JBL components. Also some time ago, there was a fellow who built a pair of super subwoofrs using 2 2235's per vented box. They would go down to 15 Hz or so. Each box was 17 ft3. He published his design in Audio Magazine be for it closed its doors. I'm sorry I don't remember the authors name, or the issue of Audio.

I have experimented in my own small listening space, which is also the living room of our abode, running stereo and mono signals to my own Sub type speakers. I get more bass from mono than stereo. I also crossover at 60 hz. I realize each room is different and It might vary from each recording. FYII, am a classical music listener.

Keep on Listening and have fun

Ed

Yes I think many people blend the L & R low freq together (mono). Do you have a pair of FR (full range) speakers sitting on top of Base cabs?

[RMC]

Steve,

RE Does the "Plasiflex" cone basically look like plastic? (post #51)

Hard to say if its plastic or a coating applied to the woofer for damping/rigidity? Its relatively stiff cone though.

The XO from woofer to 19 mm tweeter is at 4.5 khz. The fun with these small near field is that they're optimized for flat power response (off axis) instead of the usual on-axis. Mfr even says not to toe them in but rather let them fire straight out. The effect is quite interesting from such small size.

Richard

[RMC]

Steve,

RE This is off topic but do you have TS data for the 2205H? (post #52)

First pic is a copy, with TS parameters, of a 2205 computer printout given to me in 1980 by JBL's Canadian distributor. I don't use the driver in the 5.5 CF box indicated since its too large for this older SR woofer (not intended for subwoofer use). This old one uses imperial measures.

Second pic is the TS for 2205H from JBL's own TS Table. That one gives Metric measures.

The main discrepancy between the two sets of TS is on Xmax when converted to the same units.

Richard

[clwinbe]

Nice article !!

Actually I don't have anything against Powered subs and a DSP / EQ. It is just that recently I am working on passive speaker projects. My goal is +/- 1.5db 20Hz to 20Khz. Because it is more difficult to engineer, I like the challenge. From an educational standpoint, I learn more (I hope).

I’ve read a review of the L100T (seemed very detailed) that stated it was remarkably flat 20Hz-20KHz +-3.5db. Your space has more to do with low end, but it was an interesting review.