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Thread: Full range speaker to 20Hz?

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    He is talking about speaker placement. When you set up the speakers for ideal imaging in the room, relative to the listening position, room boundaries, reflections etc., you may find that the low frequency room modes or nulls may not be fall where you like. If you move subs around in the room separately to the main speakers you have greater flexibility and can get the best bass and imaging.


    Widget
    Thank you for explaining. Yeah I finally figured it out lol. little slow

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    It was a very advanced custom install system with 3' ribbons on four walls with 12" infinite baffle helper woofers mounted in the floor directly below each ribbon and the pair of massive subs.

    Unfortunately I never got to hear it. The system was already in need of repair/replacement by the time our client bought the house. Luckily after testing the subs, I was able to establish that while someone had mis-wired part of it, they were still quite good.

    Regarding ground plane measurements, they are a very good way to measure bass, but they must be made outdoors or in a very large room. You do not want any additional planes beyond the one you are using.

    Regarding measuring sensitivity, I have never found measuring sensitivity particularly important. Relative sensitivity is usually quickly established and that is all I have ever needed to know. I guess if I was a speaker manufacturer, I would bother to measure the drive voltage and calculate the sensitivity, but I am not.


    Widget
    That sounds like an interesting system with 3' ribbons etc. Sometimes I mis-wire systems also. I assume your talking about having a driver with reversed polarity. I have a small AA battery with short wires soldered to the ends for quickly checking to see that all the low frequency drivers are in phase with each other.

    Yes my GP measurements are usually about 80 ft from the closest object. I will sometimes run a gated sweep above 300Hz then splice that curve into a GP curve. I live about 10 min drive from the offices of both Linear X LMS and also AP (Audio Precision). Those are companies that make / made speaker test equipment in Oregon (as you probably know).

  3. #18
    Senior Member 1audiohack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve C 2020 View Post
    ...I live about 10 min drive from the offices of both Linear X LMS and also AP (Audio Precision). Those are companies that make / made speaker test equipment in Oregon (as you probably know).
    Is there anything left of LinearX?
    Barry.
    If we knew what the hell we were doing, we wouldn't call it research would we.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1audiohack View Post
    Is there anything left of LinearX?
    Barry.
    Nope. I think they sold the name to a co in Germany or something.

  5. #20
    Senior Member 1audiohack's Avatar
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    I thought they were done but didn’t know if someone had got that ball rolling again.

    Sorry for the divergence.

    Thank you.
    Barry.
    If we knew what the hell we were doing, we wouldn't call it research would we.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1audiohack View Post
    I thought they were done but didn’t know if someone had got that ball rolling again.

    Sorry for the divergence.

    Thank you.
    Barry.
    I am still using my old LMS. I hope it doesn't die anytime soon.

  7. #22
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    I am running LEAP on XP so not sure how much longer it will work. This thread might help if you get into a bind!

    https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/soft...dows-10-a.html

    Unfortunately there is no support even for the last versions which is a shame it's such great program!

    Rob
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCSGuy View Post
    Years ago, I used to sell Definitive Technology speakers, which were known for putting subwoofers into everything - tower speakers with a powered sub in the bottom, even some of their center speakers had a subwoofer. While these don’t strictly fit your definition, as they got close to 20hz only by being powered and EQ’d, they were full range towers. However, it was very rare that we got good bass and good imaging with the speakers in the same place. Telling someone who just dropped $3k on powered towers that you think they should buy an additional subwoofer it not usually appreciated, but was often the case. I think 20hz towers are rare just because 40hz towers with an additional really good subwoofer or two are usually easier to get to sound good.
    I noticed you are in Bend. I grew up in Lapine when I was around 10 years old.

  9. #24
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    There's a few reasons I can think of why this isn't common;

    - Flat to 20 hz anechoic means extremely bass-heavy speakers in-room. Each boundary in proximity might give up to 3 dB per octave room gain below 100 hz.

    - You can have any two combination you like of extension, small cabinet and sensitivity, but you can't have them all. Hoffman's iron law. Sacrificing sensitivity is not a very good idea and flat to 20 hz means huge box.

    M2 isn't flat to 20 hz, not by a long shot. Still, they require me to drop the 4,7 dB EQ boost at 21,5 hz AND to shelve down the bass by about 4 dB below 50 hz in my room to maintain a somewhat of a Harman-type in-room curve.
    This is the reason it's common to design in about -3 dB oct shelving from around 100 hz - to account for real rooms.

    Too much bass makes everything sound bloated and puffy, drowning all details in the music.

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  10. #25
    Senior Member RMC's Avatar
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    What is feasible in terms of F3, cab size and efficiency has been established by R.H. Small since the seventies in Vented Box..., Part 1, p. 324 widely circulated on the Net. There is no magic unfortunately.

    Small's chart below gives the details on this. Increasing pic size after saving it could make it easier to read the description under the chart (Fig. 16).

    Note that according to Eargle's Loudspeaker Handbook 1% efficiency is equivalent to 92 db/1W /1M sensitivity (half space, piston band). 2% = 95 db and 5% = 99 db, with most speaker systems at around 1-2%.

    Not a whole lot, but the cost of Watts is relatively low compared to the old days...

    Richard

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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    I am running LEAP on XP so not sure how much longer it will work. This thread might help if you get into a bind!

    https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/soft...dows-10-a.html

    Unfortunately there is no support even for the last versions which is a shame it's such great program!

    Rob
    Was LEAP made by LinearX or different company?

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by RMC View Post
    What is feasible in terms of F3, cab size and efficiency has been established by R.H. Small since the seventies in Vented Box..., Part 1, p. 324 widely circulated on the Net. There is no magic unfortunately.

    Small's chart below gives the details on this. Increasing pic size after saving it could make it easier to read the description under the chart (Fig. 16).

    Note that according to Eargle's Loudspeaker Handbook 1% efficiency is equivalent to 92 db/1W /1M sensitivity (half space, piston band). 2% = 95 db and 5% = 99 db, with most speaker systems at around 1-2%.

    Not a whole lot, but the cost of Watts is relatively low compared to the old days...

    Richard

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    Yes that is absolutely true. Have you designed any passive full range systems with extended bass?

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommytoa View Post
    There's a few reasons I can think of why this isn't common;

    - Flat to 20 hz anechoic means extremely bass-heavy speakers in-room. Each boundary in proximity might give up to 3 dB per octave room gain below 100 hz.

    - You can have any two combination you like of extension, small cabinet and sensitivity, but you can't have them all. Hoffman's iron law. Sacrificing sensitivity is not a very good idea and flat to 20 hz means huge box.

    M2 isn't flat to 20 hz, not by a long shot. Still, they require me to drop the 4,7 dB EQ boost at 21,5 hz AND to shelve down the bass by about 4 dB below 50 hz in my room to maintain a somewhat of a Harman-type in-room curve.
    This is the reason it's common to design in about -3 dB oct shelving from around 100 hz - to account for real rooms.

    Too much bass makes everything sound bloated and puffy, drowning all details in the music.

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    That makes sense

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    I am running LEAP on XP so not sure how much longer it will work. This thread might help if you get into a bind!

    https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/soft...dows-10-a.html

    Unfortunately there is no support even for the last versions which is a shame it's such great program!

    Rob
    Thanks. I am running my LMS on an old windows 98 machine

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommytoa View Post
    There's a few reasons I can think of why this isn't common;

    - Flat to 20 hz anechoic means extremely bass-heavy speakers in-room. Each boundary in proximity might give up to 3 dB per octave room gain below 100 hz.

    - You can have any two combination you like of extension, small cabinet and sensitivity, but you can't have them all. Hoffman's iron law. Sacrificing sensitivity is not a very good idea and flat to 20 hz means huge box.

    M2 isn't flat to 20 hz, not by a long shot. Still, they require me to drop the 4,7 dB EQ boost at 21,5 hz AND to shelve down the bass by about 4 dB below 50 hz in my room to maintain a somewhat of a Harman-type in-room curve.
    This is the reason it's common to design in about -3 dB oct shelving from around 100 hz - to account for real rooms.

    Too much bass makes everything sound bloated and puffy, drowning all details in the music.

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    Although I have a friend who has passive speakers that are relatively flat down to 20Hz (anechoic) and they sounded well balanced in his listening room. Maybe it is hard to generalize because each room is so different acoustically. Possibly other people can give there opinion. Maybe I am in the minority on this one.

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