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Thread: 4350/55 thread

  1. #1
    PSS AUDIO
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    4350/55 thread

    Hello to all of you,

    I had the idea, and I am not the only one who began a thread for a distinct product, that we could begin a thread for each significant items thus everybody can pick up in it all information he needs!

    If the principle of several threads is accepted, then let the talk begin...

    If open this thread as I owe, as a lot of very happy owners - I hope so, 4350 speakers (they are in fact slightly modified, it is a melting pot of 4350 and 4355).

  2. #2
    PSS AUDIO
    Guest
    Is my attempt void to death?

    I hope not!

    To begin with, please read how I modified, if I can say so, my 4350 speakers:

    Original 4350 cabinet
    One 2231H basket with a 2231 cone,
    One 2231H basket with a 2235 cone,
    One 2202H,
    One 2441 with 2308 horn,
    One 2405.

    I do not bi-amp this speaker as I use a 12 dB 250Hz Low Pass and High Pass crossover.

    I wired it on a glass epoxy printed circuit boards with tracks of almost 100 microns, air coils have a section of 1,4 mm and polypropylene condensers that are known for their unequalled sonority.

    About the typo error about the volume of 4350/55 cabinets I measured the internal volume of the 4350 cabinet and the internal size is .8m x 1.17m x .42m = 437 litres, less 45 litres for the 2202H and perhaps 10 litres more for the horn, driver, 2405 and xover.

    There is in fact 390/400 litres for two 2231H, i.e. 14 cu.ft for both drivers, if I am not mistaken.

  3. #3
    rgrjit8
    Guest
    Gee, this topic looks like it was made for me, so I'd better post something on it.

    First, I still haven't swapped my high end drivers over to mirror image format. I got as far as taking out the woofers before I realized that I'd need more than a screwdriver and a pair of pliers to do the job.
    I eventually went shopping for a socket set but all the ratchets were 8 or 9 inches long. I knew that wouldn't cut it what with the bracing, baffle and midbass compartment all in the way.
    Sooooo.
    Before I go tool shopping again, does anyone have any advice or tips on this procedure? (How to grow a tentacle would be especially useful!)

    Next, I recall the power rating on my old L 166s as being 75 watts continuous, yet they were recommended for use with 200 wpc amps. They just laughed at all the clean power I could ever afford to give them.

    So it makes me wonder......

    The 4355s are rated at 150 on top and 300 on the bottom. Just how much power would it take to make them grunt?
    Right now I have 250 on the bottom and can barely get the woofers to move before the room starts shaking so bad that it scares me. I haven't even tripped the soft clipping indicator on the amp at that level.

    What a pair of speakers!

    RohH, I want to acknowledge your emailing of the manual, it does indeed show me what to do, but I'm looking for further tips toolwise. I've lived here 10 years without needing a socket or wrench set, so when I buy one I want to get it right the first time.
    Last edited by rgrjit8; 07-17-2003 at 10:08 AM.

  4. #4
    PSS AUDIO
    Guest
    Originally posted by rgrjit8
    The 4355s are rated at 150 on top and 300 on the bottom. Just how much power would it take to make them grunt?
    Right now I have 250 on the bottom and can barely get the woofers to move before the room starts shaking so bad that it scares me. I haven't even tripped the soft clipping indicator on the amp at that level.

    What a pair of speakers
    I do confirm that a single amplifier (I placed a 12 dB 250Hz passive crossover in the speaker) able to handle 2x300 Watts under 4 ohms is enough as in a 25 mē room it is impossible, unless you are completely crazy, to run a pair of 4350-55 at full power!

    From my experience, if you need too much power to feel something more, it means that there is a lack of something or too much of something.

    In a word, your amplifier is bad!

    One can hardly imagine that with a well-balanced amplifier you must lower the output power …

    But this is a debate about power amplifiers, nothing to do with this thread ...

    Have a nice day

  5. #5
    rgrjit8
    Guest
    [
    But this is a debate about power amplifiers, nothing to do with this thread ...

    Have a nice day [/B]
    Well excuse the hell outta me, I thought you'd be happy to see this thread get a little action!

  6. #6
    PSS AUDIO
    Guest
    Well excuse the hell outta me, I thought you'd be happy to see this thread get a little action!
    I am very glad to see this thread with a little action on it as all 4350-55 owners.

    Speaking about sound quality of an amplifier could perhaps be held on a "specific" thread?

    What do you think about it, all of you?

  7. #7
    Rhino
    Guest
    Glad to see a thread on these speakers. Not enough info on them as there is so it would be great to get feedback from the owners. BTW, I am in the market for a set of mint 4355's if anyone knows of a pair that is available. I had 4350's years ago but had to sell when I downsized houses.
    If anyone is interested, what I'm currently using now are 2 sets of JBL's: L-300's and S-22's powered by Mac 500 watt and Mac 300 watt amps respectively. While not sonically perfect I'm sure, this system does a good job with the 4 15's, 2 LE85's, 2 375's and the 4 slot tweeters. Oh and just as an experiment this weekend I'm going to add 2 Velodyne 18" subs to see (and feel) the difference.
    Feel free to contact me if you want to sell a set of 4355's.

    Rhino

  8. #8
    rgrjit8
    Guest
    Sigh...

    I wasn't asking about sound quality, I was asking how much real world power the 4355 can actually handle.
    I recalled my L- 166s being rated at 75 watts but were recommended for use with amps up to 200wpc.

    Soooo. if the 4355s say 150 and 300 this means that an amp of how high a rating is recommended.?

    I'm guessing amps capable of 300 and 600 watts respectively, but does anyone know for sure?

  9. #9
    PSS AUDIO
    Guest
    Originally posted by rgrjit8


    I wasn't asking about sound quality .... I'm guessing amps capable of 300 and 600 watts respectively, but does anyone know for sure?
    I seem to be misunderstood.

    JBL says that the low can handle 300 Watts and high 150 watts. It means, still in theory that you can/must use an amplifier able to deliver such power.

    I tried to explain that, in my case (I use the 4350 with a single amplifier as I placed a passive crossover), a 2x300 Watts is by far more enough.

    The raw power of an amplifier means nothing as from my experience, when you have an amplifier unable to reproduce with high sound quality (there is no numbers able to let you know that) you will ask him more power just to feel or hear what you wish.

    I like deep bass. With an amplifier that deliver aggressive mids, I will increase the sound level until I will hear the bass I am looking for and my ears will be tired as the mids are violent.

    Once you have a well balanced amplifier you will lower it as you have a natural sound, and in my case, out of a 2x300W amplifier I pull perhaps nothing more than 10 Watts and it is from time to time too loud!

    It is very difficult to explain and to understand, as you are not in live.

  10. #10
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Originally posted by rgrjit8
    Sigh...

    Soooo. if the 4355s say 150 and 300 this means that an amp of how high a rating is recommended.?

    I'm guessing amps capable of 300 and 600 watts respectively, but does anyone know for sure?
    Those figures are simple guidelines.

    Essentially all speakers should be powered by the most powerful amp of the quality level that you can afford. Obviously in a tri-amped system for home use a 500 watt amp used on the tweeter would be a bit of over kill, but essentially, you will never damage a speaker with an amplifier capable of delivering too much power as long as you don't push the speakers into distortion. You are much more likely to destroy a speaker with a 100 watt amp driven past its limits.

    That said I use the low end section of my 4355 clones for my home theater powered by a 600+ wpc amp and for stereo listening I listen to them with a 350 wpc amp. In the home theater setup I have seen the clip indicators flash with no ill effects. Recently I watched Fightclub at THX reference level and during the mid air collision the woofers bottomed out with a very loud smack! The amp had not clipped, it was simply that the sound track has some very low frequency info at a very high level. My woofers are tuned to 29Hz. A powerful signal below that will cause them to unload and smack! A more powerful or less powerful amp would make no difference. Obviously if I were trying to play the speakers at that SPL with a 40 wpc amp the amp would have crapped out and clipped hard. That would be worse.

    For the record the four 2235Hs didn't seem the least bit phased by exceeding their XMax. I consider the mass ring as providing an auditory alert to pull back on the overall system SPL during those events. An alternative would be to add a high pass filter. Actually this was the first sound track with a very low frequency sound at a high enough level to cause this problem. I have played concert DVDs at THX +10dB and it sounds great. Obviously those mid air collisions are real killers.

  11. #11
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    "Recently I watched Fightclub at THX reference level and during the mid air collision the woofers bottomed out with a very loud smack! The amp had not clipped, it was simply that the sound track has some very low frequency info at a very high level."

    My goodness how big is your room?? How far away are you?? WOW I am surprised you bottomed them. Must be some low stuff in there. Do you have a high pass filter in place. I end up with 3 of them all on top of each other. One in the 539 EQ one in the M552 crossover and a third in the subwoofer plate amp. So I don't have anything below 20Hz into the subs and they probably have some attenuation above that. All 3 are built in and only the Urie and Plate amp are selectable frequency wise. All are set for 20Hz or lower. I can crank the new Telarc Cannons on SACD and not bottom no doubt due to the fact that I have a brick wall down low. I am sure I am missing some impact but you can't have everything!

    Rob

  12. #12
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    It is a fairly large room, approximately 24' by 26' by 10'. The viewing/listening distance is about 15'. To be fair, the sound is quite literally stunning. Upstairs the house shudders as though actual ordinance has gone off down in the theater room.

    No I do not have any filters in the system, so if 6Hz is present, the speakers try to reproduce it. Typically there is no problem with this setup. Most action movies that are filled with gobs of gratuitous explosions sound great since they obviously filter the infrasonics.

    The funny thing is over all the system doesn't sound that loud. This is probably due to the very low distortion inherent in the main speakers (Meyer UPA 1 clones) as well as the bottom end of the 4355s.
    Last edited by Mr. Widget; 07-24-2003 at 10:45 AM.

  13. #13
    Alex Lancaster
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    I built 4350/5's years ago, and always liked them, for me the 2235's are better, specially than the 2231 alnicoīs, the 16Hz Fs does not tell all the story, look at the response curves; at the time, I had access to the then current blueprints and components, and now You can get the 3107 x-overs at the JBL tent sale, I saw somebody trying to auction some in eBay for $90 + shipping, they are $77 delivered.

    Current system per side:

    above 80Hz

    2405H w 1 micro f cap, have tried mylar and poly, cannot hear a difference.
    2425J w 3110 x-over 2312 horns, 2308 lenses.
    2220H

    below 80Hz

    1 ea SP120PII subs

    Sony N80ES amp
    " 2000ES pre
    " ES CD
    various turntables, I am waiting for a Shure V15-V cart. ($)
    DENON 30W amp and small speakers for rear surround.

    It is good, but the system "in progress" is per side:

    2405H
    2445J with almost hand made horns and 2308 lenses
    2202H
    2-2245H driven by crown K2 amp in 560L enclosures.
    3107 x-over

    Sony N80ES in mono.
    M553 x-over or 5234

    the K2 has a built in 8Hz filter, so for TELARC's 1812, it will be that.

    For my deranged xtreme audiophile friends (check aca.gr on the net), who maintain the "sweetness" of tubes, I've told them to smear some grape (or Your favorite) jelly on their direct-to-disc LPīs.

    Thanks for all suggestions, it is a lot of fun.

    I am getting together 4 blown 2241H's and recone them as 2245H, If I can't get the flat wire, Iīll make it.

  14. #14
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    Have you checked ?

    I am getting together 4 blown 2241H's and recone them as 2245H,
    Alex, you should read the posted info about the expected lack of success in reconing a 2241 to a 2245 and the better (successful) way to go (reconing a 2240 / E155 into a 2245h)

    regards <> Earl K

  15. #15
    Alex Lancaster
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    Earl, I did read it, excellent; Already have 3 blown 2241's with a customs broker in Laredo, TX, waiting for more non Hi-Fi merchandise, CAT and Komatsu parts for my business, to make up a load.

    When I get done with them, I know the end product, will be a bit of a bastard, like putting JBL diaphs into Altec drivers, which I have done with D16R2425's, Iīll let You know.

    Thanks: Alex

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