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Thread: Looking For More Punch From My 2245, 4345 Clone

  1. #16
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Depending on your definition of "punch" it may have nothing to do with the 2245s.

    "Kick", "snap", "punch" however you define them can occur at frequencies pretty much all over the map!
    Good point I am taking it as sheer impact you know the visceral impact. A pair of 15's, especially depending on box tuning and placement can damn near beat you to death. Especially 100db 1 watt sensitive with kilowatt power handling. That's damn near a 4648 cinema box.

    Rob
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

  2. #17
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    This is a sweep with everything hooked up correctly. I think it looks right, the blue is both speakers. I turned up the gain on the bottom amp so it is higher up to the first crossover point. I think it's 290 Hz now.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    If itís a clone you might follow Earlís lead.

    If you can get them six inches off the floor everything works better.
    My 15" woofers did sit about six inches higher in the cabinets than these. I'm going to try to make a pair of stands to raise them.

    As Mr Widget said, these definitely have more finesse than the dual 2226 drivers. When I hooked them up I did like them a lot better. Just playing some songs at insanely high levels the single 18" lost something that the dual 15" had.

  4. #19
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMWCCA View Post
    Depending on your definition of "punch" it may have nothing to do with the 2245s.

    "Kick", "snap", "punch" however you define them can occur at frequencies pretty much all over the map!
    Yes, that was my point. The 2202 is much punchier than the 2122 or 2123. Personally, I prefer the 10” woofers, but if my goal was punch, that is where I’d look.

    Of course, as many here have pointed out, there are many factors to consider, properly operating drivers, proper tuning, room position, personal expectation...


    Widget

  5. #20
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robertg View Post
    Just playing some songs at insanely high levels the single 18" lost something that the dual 15" had.
    Now weíre getting somewhere.

    Years ago I built a pair of 4355 clones. They really didnít do it for meÖ they certainly kicked ass, but I prefer speakers with a more refined capabilityÖ that also can kick ass.

    I donít think the 2245 is letting you down, but I donít think that the 10 inch mid bass driver is ever going to give you a bad ass rock concert in your house if thatís where youíre going. it will certainly get loud, but thereís something about it that doesnít quite have the slam of a PA system driven hard. The 2202 will give you that. It would be interesting to get Audiohackís opinion on this as well. He has been known to turn the system up loud occasionally.


    Widget

  6. #21
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robertg View Post
    My first step was to reverse the wires to the woofers and take a measurement. My ears couldn't hear a major difference but using my REW program I came up with this. Now they are out of phase. Green is right, red is left, blue is both.
    Robert,

    My suggestion is to use a process of elimination to finding the cause of your subjective issue.

    I generally find if something sounds off that with some work I can isolate and fix the issue. Always trust your ears and assume nothing is ever perfect.

    There is a bit to read through below. Use it as a check list in terms of what to look for and what to do about it.

    Start by testing the box tuning frequency first. Also test for air leaks around the enclosure.

    About box tuning. Check the Fb (box tuning frequency by sweeping a sine wave up and down from 20 - 35 hertz
    and observe the point of minimal cone excursion. You can do this by gentle touch. The impedance curve is not
    entirely accurate due the driver inductance according to Greg Timbers.
    Greg said the tuning frequency should be around 28 hertz. A shade either side of that is permissible.
    (that's the way he explained it to me when I built my clones in 2003).

    Your enclosure should be lined with one inch fibre glass sheet insulation on five sides and around the Dog box.
    If you are using another material that opens up unknown variables. ie the box volume might be smaller than
    specified if you are using under felt or foam rubber or pillows.


    Positioning. Try re-positioning of the enclosures if that is practical. A trolley board with 4 heavy duty casters works well.
    Small incremental movement out from the rear wall can be helpful in obtaining the smoothest bass.
    Try raising the enclosure if practical. The combination of horizontal and vertical movement from the wall/floor
    boundaries can assist in moderating the worst of most bass response issues.

    The bottom on the horn lens should be level with your ears for best imaging.

    Measurements. Are you able to describe how you did these measurements?

    Distance from the baffle?
    Sine wave , Pink noise?

    FWIW I have only ever obtained meaningful measurements on my driveway with the enclosures laying on the side (ground plane) using 5 db per division at 2 metres.

    The phase cancellation which you might expect at the crossover point is unlikely to be visible if you take a measurement from the listening position inside your home. 10 db per division is not going to show much.

    About the phase. Per the 3145 schematic and Giskard's equivalent schematic the mid range array drivers are wired out of phase
    to the woofers after the L pads.
    JBL specified 18 db slopes in the stock system. The 18 db active slope was chosen because it was the closest
    standard filter to the custom 12 db passive filter slopes.

    However you are using the 2123H and without knowing your bi amp crossover characteristic you can't
    really predict or determine the effect of reversing the woofer electrical phase. The 2123 has a different low
    frequency characteristic to the 2122 and requires different associated passive low pass filters to obtain a smooth
    response.

    So there are a few unknowns and you might advise how your passive crossovers are arranged for the 2123
    drivers?

    Active crossovers. The thing to appreciate is that most 3rd party active crossovers assume you are using text book drivers.
    Unfortunately that is far from the case in this complex four way system where you have substituted out the stock
    2122H mid range driver due to it being NLA with the 2123H. Like lots of things in audio everything matters and
    the crossover is the heart if your loudspeaker. So its worth getting it right if you can. BTW the dog box should
    only be lightly filled with fibre glasinsulation. Too much and it will sound over damped


    You might try the 24 db LR filters and wire everything electrically in phase. Listen and see what the measurements look like.

    The LR24 crossover is the most black and white crossover function as everything should in theory sum flat with
    text book drivers wired electrically in phase. It kind of dumbs it down because the slopes are steep and its a good
    compromise when you don't know what's going on in the diy space.
    The 18 db filters are the son of a bastard in that they are neither here nor there.

    As I hinted at previously I would use a 2nd order low pass filter and a 2nd order butter-worth high pass filter and
    listen and measure if you are using the 4344mk11 mid range passive low pass filter.

    If your digital active crossover allows custom filters then you can try adjusting the filters crossover point
    "spread" until you get a measured null with the woofer electrically out of phase (LR24)(measured at 1 metre) or
    electrically in phase (12 db) filters. The centre frequency should be 300 hertz

    The subjective effect of acoustic anti phase driver is a thin sounding mid range generally.

    I hope these points provide some clarity.

    Ian

  7. #22
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    Now weíre getting somewhere.

    Years ago I built a pair of 4355 clones. They really didnít do it for meÖ they certainly kicked ass, but I prefer speakers with a more refined capabilityÖ that also can kick ass.

    I donít think the 2245 is letting you down, but I donít think that the 10 inch mid bass driver is ever going to give you a bad ass rock concert in your house if thatís where youíre going. it will certainly get loud, but thereís something about it that doesnít quite have the slam of a PA system driven hard. The 2202 will give you that. It would be interesting to get Audiohackís opinion on this as well. He has been known to turn the system up loud occasionally.


    Widget
    I heard Elton John last week. Six arrays and wham. That was loud and punchy. They dial in the effects and bingo that crowd goes crazy. Its all very subjective and everyone has their own ear for what turns them on emotionally.

    The thing is any SR based system is going to too slam and beat you up. If you like that cool. Bring on the wall of sound.
    But are you really craving to get closer to the musicians. I think the slam and punch create that desire.

    Turn it up at home. Are you craving for what's missing?

    IMHO being front centre stage in a club in SF is more real. The pure tone, texture of the brass and strings, the snare and the growl of the Fender brings on a far more emotional engagement with the sensors.

    Set up properly the 4345 ticks a lot of boxes without going financially off the deep end.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    Robert,

    My suggestion is to use a process of elimination to finding the cause of your subjective issue.

    I generally find if something sounds off that with some work I can isolate and fix the issue. Always trust your ears and assume nothing is ever perfect.

    There is a bit to read through below. Use it as a check list in terms of what to look for and what to do about it.

    Start by testing the box tuning frequency first. Also test for air leaks around the enclosure.

    About box tuning. Check the Fb (box tuning frequency by sweeping a sine wave up and down from 20 - 35 hertz
    and observe the point of minimal cone excursion. You can do this by gentle touch. The impedance curve is not
    entirely accurate due the driver inductance according to Greg Timbers.
    Greg said the tuning frequency should be around 28 hertz. A shade either side of that is permissible.
    (that's the way he explained it to me when I built my clones in 2003).

    Your enclosure should be lined with one inch fibre glass sheet insulation on five sides and around the Dog box.
    If you are using another material that opens up unknown variables. ie the box volume might be smaller than
    specified if you are using under felt or foam rubber or pillows.


    Positioning. Try re-positioning of the enclosures if that is practical. A trolley board with 4 heavy duty casters works well.
    Small incremental movement out from the rear wall can be helpful in obtaining the smoothest bass.
    Try raising the enclosure if practical. The combination of horizontal and vertical movement from the wall/floor
    boundaries can assist in moderating the worst of most bass response issues.

    The bottom on the horn lens should be level with your ears for best imaging.

    Measurements. Are you able to describe how you did these measurements?

    Distance from the baffle?
    Sine wave , Pink noise?

    FWIW I have only ever obtained meaningful measurements on my driveway with the enclosures laying on the side (ground plane) using 5 db per division at 2 metres.

    The phase cancellation which you might expect at the crossover point is unlikely to be visible if you take a measurement from the listening position inside your home. 10 db per division is not going to show much.

    About the phase. Per the 3145 schematic and Giskard's equivalent schematic the mid range array drivers are wired out of phase
    to the woofers after the L pads.
    JBL specified 18 db slopes in the stock system. The 18 db active slope was chosen because it was the closest
    standard filter to the custom 12 db passive filter slopes.

    However you are using the 2123H and without knowing your bi amp crossover characteristic you can't
    really predict or determine the effect of reversing the woofer electrical phase. The 2123 has a different low
    frequency characteristic to the 2122 and requires different associated passive low pass filters to obtain a smooth
    response.

    So there are a few unknowns and you might advise how your passive crossovers are arranged for the 2123
    drivers?

    Active crossovers. The thing to appreciate is that most 3rd party active crossovers assume you are using text book drivers.
    Unfortunately that is far from the case in this complex four way system where you have substituted out the stock
    2122H mid range driver due to it being NLA with the 2123H. Like lots of things in audio everything matters and
    the crossover is the heart if your loudspeaker. So its worth getting it right if you can. BTW the dog box should
    only be lightly filled with fibre glasinsulation. Too much and it will sound over damped


    You might try the 24 db LR filters and wire everything electrically in phase. Listen and see what the measurements look like.

    The LR24 crossover is the most black and white crossover function as everything should in theory sum flat with
    text book drivers wired electrically in phase. It kind of dumbs it down because the slopes are steep and its a good
    compromise when you don't know what's going on in the diy space.
    The 18 db filters are the son of a bastard in that they are neither here nor there.

    As I hinted at previously I would use a 2nd order low pass filter and a 2nd order butter-worth high pass filter and
    listen and measure if you are using the 4344mk11 mid range passive low pass filter.

    If your digital active crossover allows custom filters then you can try adjusting the filters crossover point
    "spread" until you get a measured null with the woofer electrically out of phase (LR24)(measured at 1 metre) or
    electrically in phase (12 db) filters. The centre frequency should be 300 hertz

    The subjective effect of acoustic anti phase driver is a thin sounding mid range generally.

    I hope these points provide some clarity.

    Ian
    Thanks, lots to work with here.

    The measurements were taken about 13' from the speakers very close to my sitting position. I used REW and it is a sine wave sweep from what I know. I just used the default. I just started using REW and it is a lot over my head.

    The room is 10'6"x21' and I sit at my desk about 15' from the speakers. There isn't really anywhere else to put the speakers, I just could move them away from the walls a bit. They are sitting against the short wall of the room. I could move them to another room that is larger, but I already have two other pairs of speakers in it.

    I checked the tuning with my hand and it seemed like it was 28 Hz. I did this before you posted this. The cabinets dimensions match the plans posted here. They are lined with 1" fibreglass on five sides. The fibreglass is stiffer than home insulation, I believe it was made for insulating ducts. There is 1" insulation on five sides of the dog box also. There shouldn't be any leaks in the boxes, my carpentry skills are a lot better than my speaker tuning skills.

    I am using an Xilica XP4080, so it has lots of choices for crossover slope, filters etc.

  9. #24
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    The 2251Js (~9.75") have punch. I attribute it to the light cone and accordion edge working with the differential drive to create a fast transient response.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    Hi Robert,

    I understand.

    My impression is your horns are around 8 feet apart or thereabouts.

    Can l suggest you try sitting a bit closer to the system (10-11 ft) so you have less of the room indirect sound and more of the direct sound from the drivers. Try it with a spare chair. Toe in about 10 degrees might help.

    I sit 3 meters (about 10 feet) from my system with the enclosures on the long wall ( horns 3 metres apart). Itís been that way for a while and l like it.
    The horns are 6 ft apart. I have a couch in the room also, so moving closer to the speakers would be difficult I want to keep the couch as far from the speakers as possible. I still like the idea of lifting them.

  11. #26
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    Hi Robert,

    I have been looking at some of your earlier threads and posts.

    Getting back to your question a pair of 2226 a side is one very potent mid bass system with very sensitivity of over 100 dB. That might serve a number of applications in the SR industry.

    The 4345 is not going to complete with that in the way you might be used to with the 2 pairs of 2226 drivers. If you are wedded to that presentation l recommend you look up Drewís Clues in the Library on ideas to enhance what you like.

    For example you might move this rig back into your larger room and end up with 2 x 18 inch 2245 (or 2242) subs per side 25-100 hertz , dual 2226 mid bass drivers 100-500 hertz , a single 2123 driver 500-1200 hertz, your 2440 driver 1200-8000 hertz, your slot 8000-20000.

    This approach is building out and enhancing the dual 2226 approach by limiting the 2226 operating bandwidth to its optimal range and supplementing it above and below with other drivers.

    That l think is what your really on about.

    The idea of the 4345 is an accurate (1980 era) mastering monitor which it does well.
    Replacing the 2245 with the 2242 is going to give you more of what the 2245 does.

    You could also try the 2245 in your larger room at some point.

  12. #27
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    2242's would be a mistake, as would 2240s. 2241H is the better way to go, especially if you have a big cabinet (10+ cu ft). But these will also work in a much smaller cabinet (down to 5+ cu ft). Run the WinISD simulations to convince yourself that there is no contest.

    I use them in the Ethyl Mermans and they have a whole he-- of a lot more slam than the AlNiCo 2235s in the L300s.

  13. #28
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    If you want a good track to assess "slam," listen to a high quality recording of the drum track at the opening of Billie Jean by MJ. With a bit of volume it should kick you in the chest and about knock you out of your chair. Don't expect it on the YouTube video over you computer.

    https://youtu.be/Zi_XLOBDo_Y

  14. #29
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    2241 makes a far better "subwoofer" than a 2242.

    I use 8 mH/95 mfd with a 100 mfd/1.2 ohm Zobal on my 2241s. Run the simulation and you will see thats' subwoofer territory. 2242s would peak higher up. Again run the WinISD simulations and convince yourself.

    BTW, 2242s are not true subwoofers even though they were marketed that way to theaters. Just look at their specs.

  15. #30
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    A picture is worth 1,000 words. 2242 is a "subwoofer" in name only.

    2241H in green and 2242H in red from WinISD:


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