Page 6 of 7 FirstFirst ... 4567 LastLast
Results 76 to 90 of 96

Thread: Looking For More Punch From My 2245, 4345 Clone

  1. #76
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    10,282
    Quote Originally Posted by robertg View Post
    I probably bought it around Christmas or so.

    I have a Cambridge Audio DacMagic Plus DAC, Sonos Connect, Sony CDP-D12 CD player, Mcintosh C2200 tube preamp, Crest 7001 amp for the 2445s, and a Krell amp KSA-50S.
    Off topic but...

    Anyone looking for a convenient moderately priced streaming device, the Bluesound Node2i is similar to the Sonos Connect in functionality and ease of use, but it sounds much better. It sounds better than the Sonos both when comparing their internal DACs or when using either with an external DAC.


    Widget

  2. #77
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    7,365
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    Off topic but...

    Anyone looking for a convenient moderately priced streaming device, the Bluesound Node2i is similar to the Sonos Connect in functionality and ease of use, but it sounds much better. It sounds better than the Sonos both when comparing their internal DACs or when using either with an external DAC.


    Widget
    Hi Widget,

    No l think the context is useful. That clears that up.

    I have a Blue Sound equiped Nad C658 preamp / streamer and its good on a Tidal MQA streaming.

    Imho Bluesound is a great steaming system.

    In relative terms l have a good analogue TT set up and its as good as the streamer. I have a really good TT setup and its way better.

    I look forward to Robert’s future posts.

  3. #78
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Winnipeg Manitoba
    Posts
    231
    My next step is to buy a Bryston 10B crossover, hopefully I will find a reasonably priced one this summer.

    A couple of days ago I played the same song at the same time on my Dac, CD, and Sonos. I couldn't tell a difference. I am going to buy a good turntable one day, I still have lots of vinyl.

    Someone turned on the summer switch last week, so the audio hobby will be on hold for a little while.

  4. #79
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    10,282
    Quote Originally Posted by robertg View Post
    A couple of days ago I played the same song at the same time on my Dac, CD, and Sonos. I couldn't tell a difference. I am going to buy a good turntable one day, I still have lots of vinyl.
    While based on my experience I find that hard to believe, a few years ago a fellow Forum member lent me some RCA interconnects he was certain would expand my listening horizons and I couldnít hear the difference between my interconnects and the pair on loan.

    FWIW: In my system with a Bryston BDA-1 and then with a BDA-2 DAC, Sonos was always distinctly inferior sounding (to me as well as to numerous visitors who I shared this comparison with over the years) when compared with a CD, a Mac Mini, or the Bluesound Node 2i all playing the same file. (Comparing the CD or a copy of the disc stored on my NAS.)

    Comparing an analog version of a recording to a digital version they typically donít sound the same, but I wouldnít say either format is consistently superior.

    Quote Originally Posted by robertg View Post
    Someone turned on the summer switch last week, so the audio hobby will be on hold for a little while.
    Excellent, enjoy it while itís here!


    Widget

  5. #80
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    annapolis, md usa
    Posts
    470
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    While based on my experience I find that hard to believe, a few years ago a fellow Forum member lent me some RCA interconnects he was certain would expand my listening horizons and I couldnít hear the difference between my interconnects and the pair on loan......
    Widget
    I can completely understand it, and for the same reason. When I experienced the demonstration of said cables with several members of this forum and "generic" cables, everyone present was astonished how poorly the system sounded with the genetic set. If at that moment we had inserted a poor quality source component, it's unlikely anyone would have thought it sounded much worse.

    My feeling is that if robertg can't hear an obvious difference between those sources, he's got an issue to work out.

  6. #81
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    7,365
    There are more transparent cables such as those with Transluminum conductors.

    Transluminum is translucent aluminium.

    The point is often this is about unknown unknowns.

    You only know what you think you know?

    Technically the input impedance of some preamps and power amps decreases with frequency and may change with the position of the volume control.

    Depending on the output impedance of the source and the peak current capacity of the source the distortion levels and frequency response may be effected with changes in the signal level. The output impedance may also vary with frequency. This issue can also be effected by the inductance and capacitance of the inter connect cables. Typically valve equipment has higher impedances than solid state equipment but they are able to swing much higher voltages. This invites the possibility of random effects when different combinations of equipment are used with different cables.

    So what’s the relationship between this and what you hear?

    It’s generally agreed that the human ear is primarily sensitive to changes in amplitude or simply put tonal balance and harmonic distortion.

    While it may look subtle on paper small variations in the frequency response of 0.5 dB are audible in the context of the overall frequency response otherwise heard as the tonal balance. One component might have a slightly tilt in the response in combination with certain cables and other components.

  7. #82
    Senior Member 1audiohack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Las Vegas Nevada
    Posts
    2,794
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    Hi Barry,

    See section 1.3, 1.4 and 1.5 in this article.
    https://sound-au.com/bi-amp.htm
    Thank you Ian. Nice read.

    It seems that Mr Elliot and I are in agreement.

    Barry.
    If we knew what the hell we were doing, we wouldn't call it research would we.

  8. #83
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    7,365
    Continuing from my prior post....

    Below is a simplified electrically model of a source component, a preamp and an interconnect cable.

    The model is based on the following conditions.

    The source has an output impedance of 100R and is typical of a consumer hifi CD player or preamp.

    TypicalIy an opamp buffer has a 100R resister on the output to avoid oscillation when connected to the outside world.

    In valve hifi components the output impedance is typically 300 - 1000 ohms. Seldom less than 300 ohms.

    The output impedance may be much higher at high frequencies due to less negative feedback.

    The ability of the buffer to deliver sufficient current at typical output levels of 1 to 2 volts into the cable is important. This varies according to the selection of the chip based opamp or discrete buffer. Typically a chip buffer will only deliver a fraction of a milli amp in class A mode while a discrete buffer may deliver 2-10 milliamps depending on the design. Don't expect to see a discrete buffer in preamp components under $3,500.00 these days. A source component like a CD player typically has chip buffer like an NE5532 or an OP275 unless it is a $2500 plus component. Reviewers often remark a source component sounds better with a preamp. Go figure.

    The load impedance is 25K ohms. This is typical value in consumer audio components. In valve HiFi components this could be as high as 500K ohms.

    The cable electrical properties are arbitrary. I used 10 nF of capacitance (0.01 uF) and cable shield inductance of 0.15 mH). ).The 0.01uf value is like a polystyrene bypass capacitors used in a passive crossover.

    Depending on the cable construction including the shielding, the cable length and the terminations these properties can vary from low capacitance and inductance to the other extreme. In practice these properties would need to be measured.

    The lower graph is a valve hifi components based model with a output impedance of 500R.

    The output impedance was a key dependancy on the impact of the cable on the frequency response. The higher the output impedance the more sensitive the frequency response is to the impact of cable.

    To the lay hifi buff this may seem technical but be aware of your python interconnect and how it may be interacting with your audiophile components. Some experimentation with different cables is recommended when purchasing a hifi component. The interconnect cable from your source components to the preamp is possibly more important than the interconnect cable from the preamp to the power amp. An alternative to buying an interconnect is to purchase a length of hi quality single core audio co axial cable like the Mogami brand, buy your favourite rca connectors and assemble the cable yourself. You will save have hundreds of dollars.

    On the scale it is 0.3 dB per division.

    The contemporary jbl systems have +- 0.3 dB trim controls for adjustment of the tonal balance. That is very audible. Under prolonged listening the impact of such variations can be more obvious as you listen to different genres of music.

    Let your ears be the judge.

    I have not discussed the actual terminations which can be gold plated nickel or exotic Cu alloys and cost up to $100 a pair or more. A good clean termination is important. But there is the law of diminishing returns.

    On cables the essential thing is low noise, ideally low inductance and low capacitance.

    The graphs may not necessarily be a specific indicator of your cable and your components.

    I respect pride of ownership and people must let their ears be the judge. So l am not interested in the politics of one cable over another.

    Copyright Ian Mackenzie
    Attached Images Attached Images    

  9. #84
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    7,365
    Quote Originally Posted by 1audiohack View Post
    Thank you Ian. Nice read.

    It seems that Mr Elliot and I are in agreement.

    Barry.
    I canít remember what you said?

    Btw in the system you described do you listening at 10 or 20 yards in the back paddock?

  10. #85
    Senior Member 1audiohack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Las Vegas Nevada
    Posts
    2,794
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    ...Btw in the system you described do you listening at 10 or 20 yards in the back paddock?
    Since this thread started about dynamics, I was talking about available voltage. I think you and Mr Elliot are focusing on power dissipation.

    Iím a dynamics guy. Others focus on micro details. No ones wrong.

    I am going to jump out. I donít mean to be at odds with anyone and their focus on audio.

    Barry.
    If we knew what the hell we were doing, we wouldn't call it research would we.

  11. #86
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    7,365
    No problem here. No ones asking you to leave.

    But your response is at odds with Roberts observations:

    Quote
    ďWhen I crank it up the clip/limit light on the 550w Crest 2445 amp are my limiting factor. When I was quad amping I used a 25w multi channel McIntosh amp on the top three. I could never make the power guard lights come on.

    I was assuming a 25w amp would be fine? I guess you can't have too much power.ď

    My response addresses why Robert did not see the clip indicators on his 25 watt amps.

    Would a larger amp on the top three drivers in Robertís room make it more dynamic as you imply? Or is that placebo or intuition.

    In my experience l factually know a Phase Linear 700B is more dynamic under real listening conditions than a Marantz 140 power amp (70+70 watts) driving a fully passive Jbl 4343. I also know Biamping at 300 hertz adds another 6 dB head room according to the amp Vu meters. The interesting part is understanding why? I address this with the reference to the Rod Elliot website.

    My opinion on the question of power is itís relative to your listening distance and just how loud you like to play your system most of the time. Thatís the bit you missed. 115 dB is 10 dB louder than 105 dB and requires 10 times the power. 105 dB is 6 dB louder than 99 dB and requires 4 times the power. With that in mind the user can then make a reasonably educated guess on just how much power he proposes to use. Crown has calculators on their website for this purpose. The 6 dB headroom rule is a nice to have if you need it like in a studio environment. Distortion and burnt out drivers is the trade off under those conditions. But will the typical domestic home user be stretching his system in that way day in and day out or just turn it up occasionally to impress his mates and piss of the neighbours?

    If heís over 60 probably not. Letís be honest. But there will be exceptions. There always are.

    If the focus is on a cleaner more transparent hi resolution sound upgrade then the priority might go towards a somewhat less powerful but otherwise superior amplifier for the top three drivers. Thatís more likely to be the 60+ year old. Heís won the Daytona race 5 times and has nothing to prove. For some this the pathway forward if they aspire to a audiophile listening experience using HQ digital or vinyl recordings. The Tidal MQA master series comes to mind if you have a suitable streamer. A VPI Prime Scout TT made in America and a suitable moving coil cartridge will also serve as a hi resolution analogue source. Finally the challenge of setting up the system correctly should not be underestimated.

    The rest is up to the user.

    Ian Mackenzie
    Copyright

  12. #87
    Senior Member grumpy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    5,459
    ... add to that, most people donít realize that 10dB louder is only perceived as a 2x increase in volume.
    easy to go from 1w avg to 1000w peak when a bass boost is attached to a knob. Feel free to giggle.

  13. #88
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    10,282

    Still OT, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by grumpy View Post
    ... add to that, most people donít realize that 10dB louder is only perceived as a 2x increase in volume.
    easy to go from 1w avg to 1000w peak when a bass boost is attached to a knob. Feel free to giggle.
    ...and even though I have known that for decades, it is still difficult to really wrap your brain around it.

    This logarithmic aspect of SPLs is likely the primary reason why speakers with higher sensitivity often sound more dynamic since most of us don't have a 1000 spare watts or speakers that can handle that level of power without dynamic compression.


    Widget

  14. #89
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    10,282
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    Below is a simplified electrically model of a source component, a preamp and an interconnect cable.
    Yes, Nelson Pass has been reminding us of this since the early '80s. A traditional single ended audio cable is by industry standard meant to be a 75 ohm cable.

    I imagine many audiophile cables are not. And then there are cables like those built by MIT and Transparent with complicated L, RC circuits connected in both series and parallel to the cable. Yes, they will affect the sound, and yes they make it sound better if you own the correct gear connected to it. Other gear can easily go the other way... personally I prefer not to flavor my system in this rather random manner.

    Regarding the cables I was comparing many years ago, I don't remember what I had in the system at the time or even what I compared them with, but my recollection was that "I" didn't hear a change in that instance.


    Widget

  15. #90
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    7,365
    Quote Originally Posted by grumpy View Post
    ... add to that, most people donít realize that 10dB louder is only perceived as a 2x increase in volume.
    easy to go from 1w avg to 1000w peak when a bass boost is attached to a knob. Feel free to giggle.
    First line yes.
    Second line no.
    A bass tone control typically has +- 10 dB on audiophile equipment but there arenít many that do these days. The Hafler 101 has tone controls.
    Vintage integrated amp had bass tone controls up to 15 dB.

    Now you know why subs have very powerful class D amps

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. 2122H substitute for 4345 Clone
    By tjm001 in forum Lansing Product Technical Help
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 01-12-2017, 09:10 PM
  2. My DIY clone of 4345
    By zeljkor in forum Lansing Product DIY Forum
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 05-20-2013, 02:37 AM
  3. To clone or not to clone? 4344 vs. 4345 vs. XPL-200 Advice will be appreciated.
    By Amnes in forum Lansing Product General Information
    Replies: 34
    Last Post: 02-09-2011, 02:03 AM
  4. JBL 4345 Clone - Active Crossover Question
    By dkalsi in forum Lansing Product Technical Help
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 06-25-2010, 12:59 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •