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Thread: Looking For More Punch From My 2245, 4345 Clone

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  1. #1
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    Looking For More Punch From My 2245, 4345 Clone

    I'm trying to get more punch or kick out of a 2245. The system that I had before my 4345 clones had dual 15" 2226 drivers. It had some serious kick.

    My amp is a RAMSA WP9440 with 350 watts, I'm thinking I should try a bigger amp first? Maybe 6-700 watts?

    Would a 2240 or 2242 be a direct replacement for the 2245 without changing the tuning? I'm not sure if I really need much below 50Hz, I just listen to 70s music, no home theatre.

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    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    I don’t think of the 2245 as a kicker... it is more about musicality and finesse. Where are you crossed over and to what?

    If you crossed over at 250Hz to a 2202, I imagine you would have all the “kick” you could want.


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    I am crossed over to a 2123 at about 250 Hz right now. I've tried anywhere from 150 Hz to 300 Hz, I have an Xilica XP4080 active crossover. The red lights flash on my amp right now when I play it loud, that's why I'm thinking I might try a larger amp.

    Basically it's winter here and I am bored and have too much time on my hands to think. I am thinking of buying a larger Crest amp, like a CA12, or a Crown Reverence 1 that is 760 watts.

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    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    I am crossed over to a 2123 at about 250 Hz right now. I've tried anywhere from 150 Hz to 300 Hz, I have an Xilica XP4080 active crossover. The red lights flash on my amp right now when I play it loud, that's why I'm thinking I might try a larger amp.
    You have me scratching my head. If you don't have it now more power is not going to do it. You should have the "kick" at any power level. Even if you X4 your power it's all headroom and at 100db,which should be a cake walk for 2245's, it should be there.

    Try placement.

    Rob
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    Quote Originally Posted by robertg View Post
    I'm trying to get more punch or kick out of a 2245. The system that I had before my 4345 clones had dual 15" 2226 drivers. It had some serious kick.

    My amp is a RAMSA WP9440 with 350 watts, I'm thinking I should try a bigger amp first? Maybe 6-700 watts?

    Would a 2240 or 2242 be a direct replacement for the 2245 without changing the tuning? I'm not sure if I really need much below 50Hz, I just listen to 70s music, no home theatre.

    Hi Robert,

    What are your 4345 clones currently tuned to?

    I would first try moving the box tuning upwards ( after verifying what the current tuning is ).

    FYI, boxes tuned too low ( sometimes done by accident ) can stress the woofer making it lose punch by wasting output/cone-movement on those frequencies that are barely heard.

    Have you verified that your 2245H's have actual JBL cone kits installed ?





    BTW; I do have a few retired Crest CA12's here collecting dust ( they require a dedicated 20-30 amp circuit to work their magic ).

  6. #6
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    If it’s a clone you might follow Earl’s lead.

    I have listened to 4343’s quite a bit with 2235 fifteen inch woofers.
    The perception is they hit hard but in reality they don’t have the linearity of the 2245 bottom end.

    The 4345 has a very immersive presentation which people tend to like.
    It comes down to taste in the end. Think Stargate. It takes to somewhere else.

    If you can get them six inches off the floor everything works better.

    Getting the blend right between the 2245 and the 2123 is best done with a modified second order crossover. The low and high pass are not symmetrical. The passive bandpass filter used from the 4344mk11 behaves very differently in Biamp mode. Greg said you have to measure the voltage drives on the actual driver terminals. He knows. I went this route because it works beautifully with my 2420 drivers and dusted titanium diaphragms. The blend is inperceivable right across the spectrum.

    Some claim good results with the 3155 network using 2123 with 2446 drivers on 2311 horns. Whatever floats your boat.

    I use a Yamaha Power amp 800+800. 350 watts should do it.

    It usually takes a little while to set these systems up to give their best.

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    Something you may want to try, just for "shits and grins" is to let this run as a 3.5 way. IOW, don't the run high pass cap on the 2123 and let it roll of naturally at it's bottom end. You can just "jump" around the cap (but may need to disconnect the choke if present) for a trial. You won't hurt the 2123 in a home setting and may prefer the results.

    This is what I ended up doing with the 2251J/2241H combination, and is the best they have sounded. Of course the 2251J has a very nice natural roll off at its bottom end that blends nicely with the 2241 (with 8 mH/95 mfd with a 100 mfd/1.2 ohm "Zobal").

    Why would one want to ruin this beautiful rolloff by subjecting it to a cap?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    If it’s a clone you might follow Earl’s lead.

    If you can get them six inches off the floor everything works better.
    My 15" woofers did sit about six inches higher in the cabinets than these. I'm going to try to make a pair of stands to raise them.

    As Mr Widget said, these definitely have more finesse than the dual 2226 drivers. When I hooked them up I did like them a lot better. Just playing some songs at insanely high levels the single 18" lost something that the dual 15" had.

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    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robertg View Post
    Just playing some songs at insanely high levels the single 18" lost something that the dual 15" had.
    Now we’re getting somewhere.

    Years ago I built a pair of 4355 clones. They really didn’t do it for me… they certainly kicked ass, but I prefer speakers with a more refined capability… that also can kick ass.

    I don’t think the 2245 is letting you down, but I don’t think that the 10 inch mid bass driver is ever going to give you a bad ass rock concert in your house if that’s where you’re going. it will certainly get loud, but there’s something about it that doesn’t quite have the slam of a PA system driven hard. The 2202 will give you that. It would be interesting to get Audiohack’s opinion on this as well. He has been known to turn the system up loud occasionally.


    Widget

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    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    Now we’re getting somewhere.

    Years ago I built a pair of 4355 clones. They really didn’t do it for me… they certainly kicked ass, but I prefer speakers with a more refined capability… that also can kick ass.

    I don’t think the 2245 is letting you down, but I don’t think that the 10 inch mid bass driver is ever going to give you a bad ass rock concert in your house if that’s where you’re going. it will certainly get loud, but there’s something about it that doesn’t quite have the slam of a PA system driven hard. The 2202 will give you that. It would be interesting to get Audiohack’s opinion on this as well. He has been known to turn the system up loud occasionally.


    Widget
    I heard Elton John last week. Six arrays and wham. That was loud and punchy. They dial in the effects and bingo that crowd goes crazy. Its all very subjective and everyone has their own ear for what turns them on emotionally.

    The thing is any SR based system is going to too slam and beat you up. If you like that cool. Bring on the wall of sound.
    But are you really craving to get closer to the musicians. I think the slam and punch create that desire.

    Turn it up at home. Are you craving for what's missing?

    IMHO being front centre stage in a club in SF is more real. The pure tone, texture of the brass and strings, the snare and the growl of the Fender brings on a far more emotional engagement with the sensors.

    Set up properly the 4345 ticks a lot of boxes without going financially off the deep end.

  11. #11
    Senior Member 1audiohack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    Now we’re getting somewhere.... It would be interesting to get Audiohack’s opinion on this as well. He has been known to turn the system up loud occasionally.Widget
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    I am working on it. I spent a couple of weekends knocking something up to see what all the fuss is about.
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    From a sheer spl point of view, two 15"s should outdo a single 18". So maybe it´s not fair to compare those setups?
    Changing the 2245 to a 2241 or 2242 wouldn´t change the shortage in cone area of those 18" woofers...

    But the way those woofers sound is a different chapter.
    I believe we should differentiate between spl and the way they sound.
    Using two 2235 would give you more headroom compared to a single 2245. But they will still sound "softer" than the SR woofers...


    As Ian and widget pointed out, when using the 2123 instead of a 2122 or 2202 you have to use a different crossover. Those 2123 have less bottom end and JBL used to cross them over higher.
    2123 was used above 340hz, as 2122 or 2202 where used above 290hz.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    Now we’re getting somewhere.

    Years ago I built a pair of 4355 clones. They really didn’t do it for me… they certainly kicked ass, but I prefer speakers with a more refined capability… that also can kick ass.

    I don’t think the 2245 is letting you down, but I don’t think that the 10 inch mid bass driver is ever going to give you a bad ass rock concert in your house if that’s where you’re going. it will certainly get loud, but there’s something about it that doesn’t quite have the slam of a PA system driven hard. The 2202 will give you that. It would be interesting to get Audiohack’s opinion on this as well. He has been known to turn the system up loud occasionally.


    Widget
    A very interesting comparison.
    I own those 2123 myself, but no 2202 around...
    My impression of the 2123 is they have a lot of slam, punch etc.... But they have no low end at all, they are pure midrange woofers.
    The 2202 on the other hand looks more like a midbass woofer.
    So I guess the 2202 simply puts out more spl down low than the 2123... They have more efficiency below 350hz than the 2123. JBL crossed over the 2202 lower than the 2123...
    Maybe that fact yields to the impression of more punch?

    It would be interesting if the 2202 would still sound more punchy when crossed over above 350hz like the 2123

  14. #14
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    I'd start troubleshooting at a pretty basic level. It looks like you're quad-amping? Confirm all your woofers are moving in the right direction with a battery charge applied to the binding posts. I've seen several systems with a simple connection reversed internally. Check your amps to speaker connections also. I've seen an instance where 1 end of a Speakon connector was accidentally wired backwards. You could put a 1kw amp on those woofers and get no bass if 1 is out of phase.

    After confirming the above is all good and still no bass, you could try reversing polarity on just the 2245s with your crossover or at the binding posts and see if that helps.

    Do you have measurement tools?

  15. #15
    Senior Member BMWCCA's Avatar
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    Did we ever define "punch"?

    Depending on your definition of "punch" it may have nothing to do with the 2245s.

    "Kick", "snap", "punch" however you define them can occur at frequencies pretty much all over the map!
    ". . . as you have no doubt noticed, no one told the 4345 that it can't work correctly so it does anyway."—Greg Timbers

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